Landing in Florida for 4 Month Visit

Hi there

We are a Danish family going on a hopefully fantastic roadtrip across the US from Miami to Vancouver. After spending some time looking through the forum we just bought a Rand McNally 2016 Road Atlas.

Our first stop is Orlando beginning of April where we have done a house exchange for a week. Our initial thought was to drive through southern states via New Orleans, Austin, Albuquerque, Grand Canyon, San fran and then going up along the coast to Seattle and Vancouver. (After this we will fly to Toronto and do a cirquit of the french part of Canada and northeastern US ending in NYC where we fly back to Denmark after 17 weeks). If needed we could add some more weeks the the road trip.

We are travelling with our 5 year old twins and along the way we hope to make som more home exchanges to have a base for a week not being 'on the road'.

Is there a 'route that people take' that we should consider instead of the one sketched - we are in the very early part of planning so nothing's fixed yet beside the startpoint and end so we are open to suggestions. The route-planner on this side seems to suggest a much more northern route. This would mean not going to Grand Canyon (I have been there but my wife hasn't so I guess it would have to be a pretty solid argument :-). We will skip LA-area since we have been there before.

Best regards - Morten from Denmark.

Hello and welcome to the RTA forums !

There are many "routes that people take" across the country to choose from as well as many combinations of different routes. With the time you have available you can pretty much choose anywhere you want to go which need not be restricted to north or south. All you can do at this early stage is to look at your map and continue researching and mark up the places you really want to see. Once you have done this and start to join the dots a route will form. There is much to see in 'the middle' around the Four Corners region when you get west, which you could explore with the Grand canyon. The Colorado Rockies and Red rock formations in Southern Utah and Monument valley on route to GC. As you head to SF you could drive across Death valley to the Sierra Nevada, home to Yosemite and Sequoia NP's.

We can help you fill in the blanks and offer suggestions once you have decided on the basics of your trip, but ultimately that is up to you. Just don't get fixated on straight lines and Interstate numbers, you have time to explore different areas, but even with 10 weeks you will have to pick and choose.

I see a possible logistics problem - you most likely cannot rent a car in the US and drop it off in Canada, and vice versa. If you do find a company that allows this, I'd expect a heavy surcharge.

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Originally Posted by troltuu

NYC where we fly back to Denmark after 17 weeks). If needed we could add some more weeks the the road trip.

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Have you checked with the US consulate in your region? Normally tourists are permitted 90 days in the US. And if these 90 come before time in Canada, then that time is included. In other words, most people who enter the US as a tourist need to show that they will be leaving the North American continent within 90 days of their arrival. Crossing to Canada does not count.

If you find that that is the case, then I would recommend that you fly into Canada and do the Canadian part of your trip first, leaving just the last 90 days for the US.

Lifey

Edit: Here is the link to the US embassy in Copenhagen. Note especially the first paragraph under 'General Requirements'.

That's going to be a problem because of the house exchange.

Hello again

One night sleep and already a lot of new things to consider. Thank you.

I really didn't realize that Canada didn't count as leaving the US in terms of the getting a fresh 90 days. What a bummer !!!

The house exchanges aren't fixed yet (just the one in Miami) so I guess we could either stay in Canada after we cross the border to Vancouver and skip NYC region entirely (does anyone know if Canada has similar requirements so it would be a problem that we already spend 90 days in USA?) - or we could take a round trip to Cuba ? or Iceland ? or somewhere in the Caribean? or whereever that counts as being out of north america? Anyone has a suggestions what destination is a cheap roundtrip destination that counts ?

# glc: We would rent a car in Florida and leave it in Seattle.

Best regards - Morten.

Morten, did you read the link I included? There is no reputable airline which will allow you to fly to the US, if your ticket to leave North America is longer than 90 days. (They will allow you to fly to Canada.)

The only way you can get more time is to either apply for a visa - if you are eligible - or travel to another continent. None of the destination you suggested are eligible destinations to re enter. If this were me, I would go a little later to avoid the cold in Canada, spend all my time in Canada, then enter the US when there are 90 days left to going home. (There's lots to do and see in Canada.)

You would have to enquire at the Canadian embassy how long they permit you to stay.

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... we could either stay in Canada after we cross the border to Vancouver ...

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No you can't!! You will NOT be allowed to fly to the US if your flight out of NORTH AMERICA is MORE than 90 days away. No reputable airline would let you..

If you were to travel in June, you would miss the cold in Canada, the northern NPs in the US will be open and you will be in the south of the US when the north starts to get cold.

Before you go any further, best you visit the embassy or consulate closest to you and find out the exact requirements.... though I think they are set out very clearly on the page in my link.

Trying to get around the regulations will only backfire. Go and enjoy your 90 days (if you must start in the US), and once home start planning and saving for the next trip.

Lifey

Well I did already buy one way tickets to Miami from Copenhagen on the 3rd of April.

How could it be a problem if I but a return ticket from the states or Canada to a destination outside of North America - Iceland fitted that bill last time I checked being a European country. Then I would have a ticket into the US and out again inside the 90 days and again when I return I would have a ticket from NYC to go home (where Norweigian also sells one way tickets to Copenhagen).

Besides Iceland there must be some non north american countries where americans go on charter vacations. I guess a cruise wouldn't count.

But as it is if I start with 90 days in the US from April I could spend a whole month in Canada in July and fly home from Toronto (this doesn't sound too bad to me even though our plans were different.

Morten

If you start with 90 days in the US from April, you will have to fly off-continent before returning to either Canada or the US.

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Originally Posted by troltuu

Well I did already buy one way tickets to Miami from Copenhagen on the 3rd of April.

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Morten, most folk who travel read the country's requirements before they buy tickets. You still have NOT read all that page. No reputable airline which is VWP accredited will allow you on board without a return ticket within 90 days.

Read that link and all the links within it?

It is just that that is the law, and I thought I would save you the embarrassment of being denied entry to the US.

Lifey

I really appreciate the help and I did indeed read the pages.

I will leave the states inside the 90 days and stay in Canada for a month and fly out bypassing the US all together.

Problem is that my flight out of the north american continent is after 4 months. To prove my intention of leaving the US someone from another forum suggestet that I simply could by a Megabus ticket from Buffalo to Toronto - even if I didn't ended up using it - and show some hotel reservations in Canada.

Do you in this forum think this could solve my problem (so I can get back to the much more fun part of planning my awsome 90 days roadtrip through America:-)

Morten

No!

General requirements for visa free travel

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In order to board a plane or a ship and travel to the United States under the VWP without a visa, the traveler must be in possession of an approved ESTA. They must also be holding a passport which meets the requirements listed above and have a round-trip or through transportation ticket issued by a carrier (e.g., airline or shipping company) that has signed a VWP agreement with the U.S. government, which takes them out of the North American continent within 90 days.

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You will either have to go to Canada first, or fly off the continent and then fly back to Canada.

The issue is NOT leaving Canada or the US. The issue in YOUR case is that you will not be allowed to fly to the US without a ticket which shows you leaving the North American continent within 90 days.

Airlines get fined and have to take you back to your departure point if they bring you to the US on a one way ticket. You must have a ticket leaving North America within 90 when you arrive in Miami, no matter what other forums might tell you. Read all the ESTA requirements.

There is no other way!

Lifey

Hello again.

The other forum really disagree with your take on the issue:

"All the information provided on this forum (by wise people) is that this is NOT correct.

When you catch your Norwegian Air flight to Miami, have the documents with you that you describe, including a (bus, air, sea) ticket out of the US within 90 days, plus your return ticket from Canada to Denmark (no US transit stops) - the fact that it is dated beyond 90 days from your first entry into the US does not disqualify you from VWP entry."

and

"the information that you got on the other forum is just plain wrong. There are two separate requirements, a ticket leaving the US within 90 days and a ticket leaving North America sometime and they have made the mistake of conflating them into one requirement of a ticket leaving North America within 90 days but it is not true and if you read all the ESTA and VWP requirements you will find it nowhere.

Another demonstrable falsehood in the other forum is that all your travel has to be on a carrier that has signed the VWP agreement (to return you at their expense if denied entry) when only the carrier that you use to enter the US has to have signed the VWP agreement. The US Embassy in London has FAQs "Do I have to enter and leave the United States by a participating carrier?
No. You are only required to enter the United States by a participating carrier. Your onward or return journey may be by any mode of transport, provided you hold a return or onward ticket."

The one thing I will suggest is that if you want to cover all potential problems you need to buy your Buffalo to Toronto bus ticket before you arrive in the US, easy on the internet from Greyhound or Megabus (both the US and Canadian Megabuses do that route so check both)"

I'm really getting different advice from both seemingly wellinformed sources.

The way described here would in reality make the US decide how long I could stay in Canada. This doesn't make sense to me

I was entertaining the idea of buying a changable ticket from Vancouver inside the 90 days and then change the flight dates when safely through security - I guess once inside the US no one checks if I leave on the flight I initially stated and instead go overland to Canada - as long of course that I don't overstay the 90 days.

But this type of rule-bending would really be a waste of everybodys time and more expensive.

Honestly, it is difficult at the best of times, to decipher US Code regarding certain things. We are not the law, however, so our information has told the OP several times to go to the embassy or check the embassy site. At least one moderator and one regular have to go through the Visa process to spend time in the US, so they always know who to see and about the current laws. Those links have been given.

We really don't advocate rule-bending or breaking on this website. It's a good way to strand someone and cause them heartache when it doesn't work. We want folks to enjoy the US, seeing it by road, so we always advocate for what's right.


Donna

In a situation like this all you can really do is read the links that have been posted and any uncertainty you then have, you should contact the relevant Authorities and take it up with them. Yes there may be loopholes, but I wouldn't want to plan and book a trip with any doubt hanging over me. Lifemagician is the most experienced 'long stay' overseas visitor on here and speaks from her own personal experiences. Good luck !

Dave.

What strikes me as most interesting, is that you have not bothered to go to the US embassy/consulate to get your information. It is not as if it will take you days to drive to a consulate in Denmark.

If you go down to post 12 in this thread you will read a copy of what is on the US embassy in Copenhagen website. I suspect you have not shown this to the members of the other forum.

Do as you like, but remember, everything is now on world wide computers. One stroke of a key they have your complete travel history. Chances are you will be flagged by Border Patrol or Homeland Security, and jeopardise the opportunity to return.

I have seen people been questioned and taken aside at the airport on arrival. (Have you never seen these border patrol/security television shows? These are all recorded at ports of arrival, in different countries, including the US.)

But if you think you know better, prefer not to get the information from the US consulate/embassy, or would rather try to get around the rules, it is you who will have to live with the consequences.

An extra thought.

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I guess once inside the US no one checks if I leave on the flight I initially stated and instead go overland to Canada - as long of course that I don't overstay the 90 days.

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In theory that is true. But should you ever wish to travel to North America again, you will be flagged on the computer as an overstayer. That will apply to both US and Canada. Once you are tagged as an overstayer and a liar, it is hard to convince any border control that you are telling the truth, and to shake off that tag. The computer system records both the date you say you are going to leave and the date on which you actually left the North American continent.

Lifey

Hello forum.

After buying Rand McNallys Road Atlas and plotting in places we really want to visit we have put together this initial itinerary for our 4 months road trip in the US and Canada that we would love to get some feedback on.

We start with a week in Tampa in early April where we have made a home exchange.
Then we will drive along the coast more or less to New Orleans and then to Texas where we will stay somewhere for a week – we are negotiating a house swap in Houston. The Tampa to Texas part we have appr a week to do. Is there any places in the south worth detouring for on this part ?

After this we will fly to San Francisco where we also have a week with an exchange. From here we will go Coast to coast.
Week 5: Yosemite, Death Valley, Vegas, Grand Canyon, Monument Valley.
Week 6: staying a week somewhere – maybe Salt lake city (is there a better option or could it be worthwhile?) since we are going north to yellow stone.
Week 7: Yellowstone and Mount Rushmore. From here we are not really sure where to go. We would love suggestions.
We are aiming for Chicago where we hope to make an exchange in week 9 but if another more southern route would make a lot more sense we could also safe Chicago for some other time since it has easy access from Europe.
Week 10: Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Atlantic City.
Week 11: New York – hopefully doing an exchange, but NYC is not easy to find swapping partners in.
Week 12: Boston where we already have exchange plans.
Week 13: New Hampshire and Maine until our 90 days in the US are up.
Week 14: Nova Scotia, Canada, 1 week exchange arranged
Week 15: Quebec, Montreal, Ottawa.
Week 16: Toronto (doing an exchange hopefully) and Niagara falls daytrip.
Week 18: Back to reality in Denmark :-)

Since we are travelling with kids (twins of 5 years and a baby) we are not going on very long wilderness walks – sights should be mainly drivable. We love to spend time to know a random community a bit better and to try live the American way of live hence the exchange plans. In this phase we still are very open for suggestions. Also anything kidfriendly. As another poster wrote : “We're interested in history, awesome but affordable waterparks/playgrounds, possibly small age appropriate theme parks. Anything that little kids of that age would find mildly amusing”

Best regards from Copenhagen, Denmark – Morten.

So you've decided to ignore the advice you've been given above by those who have been there and done that - and are pushing forward with your plan to stay in North America for 4 months, despite the fact that you're legally required to leave the continent within 3 months?

Or are you planning to fly out to Iceland somewhere in the middle as you'd mentioned at one point?

Or did you actually contact the US embassy and get information that contradicts what is written on the websites previously provided - as well as the information that others on this forum have discovered in their research? I'll be honest, I'll be shocked if you're allowed to even board your flight to the US with your current plan, as it is the airlines responsibility to fly you back home if you are found to be in violation of immigration rules and are denied entry (and they certainly don't want to fly you home on their dime).

The plan you laid out looks pretty reasonable, except for that incredibly huge problem that even in the best case, could impact your ability - and your childrens ability - to ever return to the US or Canada.

Edit, BTW: I agree that is seems very strange that the US would care when you leave Canada or any other North American country, but when you look closely at the rules (and what others who have tried to do what you are hoping have actually been told by US immigration), you're setting yourself up for some big problems.

Four months is longer than you can be in North America under the Visa Waiver Program (VWP). Getting out of the United States (into Canada) in 90 days is insufficient to qualify for the VWP. The following is a direct quote from the website of the US Embassy in Copenhagen:

"In order to board a plane or a ship and travel to the United States under the VWP without a visa, the traveler must be in possession of an approved ESTA. They must also be holding a passport which meets the requirements listed above and have a round-trip or through transportation ticket issued by a carrier (e.g., airline or shipping company) that has signed a VWP agreement with the U.S. government, which takes them out of the North American continent within 90 days." (Emphasis added.)

We have warned you of this before. What information have you gotten, from a source more reliable than the US Embassy, that you can contravene this requirement?

AZBuck

Since my last post in this thread, I have been wondering how many of those who gave advice on the other forum, actually live outside of North America and have travelled to North America in the last decade. Or are they still talking about what they heard folk were doing many years ago.

What makes you think the Canadian border control are not aware of the rules. They won't break them. They work in closely with US law enforcement. The date you are to leave North America is stamped in each passport on entry to the US (and you can't alter that), and will be adhered to by Canadian border control.

You need to be a lot more clever if you think you are going to fool them. We have given you alternatives, which you are obviously not interested in accepting.

Lifey

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Originally Posted by AZBuck

Four months is longer than you can be in North America under the Visa Waiver Program (VWP).

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Not if you go to Canada FIRST!

Problem is, you went ahead and planned a trip without getting all the information. In days gone by, travel agents would have made you aware of that. The do it yourself travel planning means that you have the obligation to get all that knowledge and information which travel agents have, before you start planning a trip.

It is not too late now, to change, and do Canada first. The cost of that would be much less than the cost you could encounter by sticking to the above plan.

Lifey

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Originally Posted by troltuu

The other forum really disagree with your take on the issue:

"the information that you got on the other forum is just plain wrong.

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Sorry, I was out of the country myself when you originally posted this, but there is one huge fact that needs to be pointed out about the flaw with the above post.

The information people on another forum are telling you is "just plain wrong" is taken directly from the US embassy's website. Essentially, they're not tell you that we're wrong, they're telling you that the US embassy is wrong!

I would never recommend taking legal advice from anyone on any internet forum - including the RTA Forum! That's why everyone has recommended you contact the embassy YOURSELF.

Hello again everybody.

As much as I do appreciate your concerns on the overstaying front I really was hoping this time around to actually get some tips and suggestions on the route we are considering hence I made a new post – but now the focus is solely on the red tape.

I’m getting a little sad when you as experienced forum contributors make conclusions on my behalf such as “you have not bothered to go to the US embassy/consulate to get your information.” (How could you possibly know that I haven’t) or “We have given you alternatives, which you are obviously not interested in accepting.”

As it turn out I did go to the US embassy/consulate to get information and did consider the given alternatives mentioned. The consulate in Copenhagen that I live very close by cannot or will not answer questions regarding the Visa Waiver Program telling me to contact “U.S. Customs and Border Protection” who has not answered me yet. They did however tell me that I could apply for a 6 months visa – it will cost me quite a bit of cash but will solve my problems. So with that information we have been pushing on with our planning and were ready for some advice from this forum that I had been recommended. As we already had some home exchanges planned in for example Boston it made sense for us to actually leave the US during the first 3 months anyway and stay one month in Canada at the end.

Hoping to not go into the discussion we already had again I wrote in my new post that we would leave US inside 90 days. I guess it had the opposite effect.

Finally I beg forgiveness from all of you for questioning the information givin. I really really doesn’t make any sense to me that US in reality can decide how long time I can stay in Canada !!! I have no intention what so ever to stay in USA for longer than the 90 days. I will get an exit stamp at a Canadian border after less than 90 days, and after this I will not return not even in transit. It still puzzles me that I could risk being “tagged as an overstayer and a liar” as it was put here.

I did, and still do, think that the other forums argument sounds pretty reasonable and that’s why I used it to challenge what I heard here. It really is not straight forward to figure out these rules I think.

I guess now being in bad standing in the forum I have to go elsewhere to get input.

I wish you all the best.

Morten.

It's not that you're in bad standing, it's more like the phrase "except for the murder of your husband, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

When you tell us that you're moving forward with a plan to stay in North America for 4 months, when the US embassy writes pretty clearly that you have to leave North America within 90 days (and which is what other visitors to this forum have told us they have been told by customs), the details of your plan become pretty insignificant.

The first time I read that you had to leave North America within 90 days, I had the exact same reaction you did, why should the US care when I leave a different country, but that is the rule. I will try to find you another thread where this exact same situation came up a few months ago.

I looked at what you posted on LP, and you didn't make it clear that the advice you were getting here was being quoted from the US embassy, which lead them to declare that it was wrong. I would be curious what their reaction would be if you reposted it, saying it was from the Embassy in Copenhagen. I would hope they would be less likely to declare it as "just plain wrong."

The overstayer and liar comment appeared to be a direct response to one of your plans to switch your plane tickets, hoping they don't catch you, to get around the rules.

If you get a response from customs and are told something different that what others have reported, and what is written on the Embassy's website, we'd love to hear that too. If you decide to move forward with the tourist visa, that would work too, although I'll warn that from others have reported, that's quite difficult to actually get approved. I'd bet switching your plan to visit Canada first would be far less costly and time consuming.

This is the post where someone else, also from Denmark coincidentally, was hoping to spend 90 days in the US and then head onto Mexico, and was told by the embassy that their plan would not work without a full visa.

As you'll see in the thread, my reaction was one of surprise, as I didn't think it would be a problem at first either.

If you are going ahead with applying for a full visa, I wish you good luck. Hopefully you will be able to fullfil their criteria.

One of the first things you will have noticed in the information for the application is not to purchase a ticket or make any travel arrangements until the visa is granted. They warn that they do not take any responsibility for moneys spent if the visa is not granted.

That is also what I have been told each time I applied for the visa, even though the last time was simply for a renewal. They would not guarantee that I could get the renewal.

Until you have your visa, any travel advice, route suggestions or anything else is irrelevant.

Lifey

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Originally Posted by Lifemagician

Have you checked with the US consulate in your region? Normally tourists are permitted 90 days in the US. And if these 90 come before time in Canada, then that time is included.

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Being from Denmark, a country we have a visa waiver agreement with, its highly unlikely they would be allowed in the U.S. for only 90 days. Most probable is they will received admission into the U.S. for 6 months. If they exist the U.S. and go into Canada, they can re-enter the U.S. and receive up to another 6 months; and, could apply for an extension after that 6 months. Additionally, if they enter the U.S. on a Visitor's admission, no one will come looking for them if they overstay their time.

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Originally Posted by lsmnjacfl

Being from denmark, a country we have a visa waiver agreement with, its highly unlikely they would be allowed in the u.s. For only 90 days. Most probable is they will received admission into the u.s. For 6 months. If they exist the u.s. And go into canada, they can re-enter the u.s. And receive up to another 6 months; and, could apply for an extension after that 6 months. Additionally, if they enter the u.s. On a visitor's admission, no one will come looking for them if they overstay their time.

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Unfortunately, you too have not studied the US embassy website in Copenhagen. You will find that your statement is quite erroneous. When did you last travel to the US, and tried to stay for more than 90 days?

It is having this kind of erroneous information posted which causes all the confusion. All the information I posted above is gleaned direct from the US Embassy website in Denmark. Maybe if you check that site, and read the requirements, you may be able to post correct information.

If you read right through this thread you will note that in the end the original poster was advised by the embassy to apply for a six month visa for this trip.

The exit to Canada to gain extra time in the US is long gone. It was abolished after the attack on New York in 2001. Since then the entry control has been steadily getting more and more strict.

True, they may not come looking for you, but it will be on your travel record worldwide for the rest of your life.

Lifey

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Originally Posted by LSMNJACFL

Being from Denmark, a country we have a visa waiver agreement with, its highly unlikely they would be allowed in the U.S. for only 90 days. Most probable is they will received admission into the U.S. for 6 months.

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Welcome to the RTA Forum, but I'm sorry, You clearly have no knowledge of what's involved with the visa waiver program. No one from ANY WVP country is allowed to visit the US for 6 months without getting a full tourist visa. Everything you posted is completely inaccurate, and I have to agree with Lifey, posting this kind of "advice" only serves as a disservice for those looking for help.