4 week Cross country camping trip Detroit-San Diego

So glad I found this site, seems like a ton of great information as we start planning our 4 week camping adventure. With a final destination of San Diego, and hitting some of the important stops along the way, there and back, - Mt. Rushmore, Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, San Francisco, four corners, Just looking for any extra thoughts of must see places along the way. family of four, incl. 2 girls, 12 and almost 14. Also, anything that has worked well to keep kids engaged and having fun? It was something we did as a family many times when I was young so I've been all over the US and Canada and now want my wife and kids to experience some parts they haven't seen.

thoughts? suggestions? One thing I've noticed in checking on travel trailer rentals is not all places will let you take it past the rockies. Anyone else rent and drive to the coast?

We will driving in our 2008 Yukon, pulling the rented travel trailer.

thanks!!

Welcome to the Great American RoadTrip Forum, this is the first time I've ever heard of a limitation for travel trailers being the Rockies. That's really odd... Are you sure you've read the conditions correctly?

Sounds like a great trip -- I've got to leave for a few minutes -- but I'll get back in a hour or so.

Mark

so far it was only one location that said that. I worked at a car rental place when I was college (local place) and we had a similar policy. curious how common it is...

Hello and welcome to RTA.

The first thing I would recommend is getting a good map of the USA and sitting down with the family and get the Kid's involved in the planning. Family road trips are always more fun when everyone has a vested interest, knowing where you are going and understanding what you are doing. You have a list of stops that are important to you, so I would start to put dots on the map, marking those places. Once you have done that you can start to work out how best to join them up with the 'bits inbetween.

Other places I find interesting [and think you might based on what you have told us] are the Southern Utah NP's of Arches, Canyonlands, Zion and Bryce canyon plus the wonderful Sierra Nevada in California, home to Yosemite and Sequoia National parks. Alcatraz in San Fran and Monument Valley in AZ are 2 more favourites.

There will of course, be thousands of options open to you and I would recommend you search around the forums [check out the 'Field reports' section] the planning resources in the tool bars above where you will find Lot's of ideas.

National Parks >> If you plan to visit more than 4 major parks, it will be cheaper to purchase the annual pass for $80. [Does not include Ferry to Alcatraz or parking at Mt Rushmore]. > Join the Kid's up into the Junior Ranger programs where they can take part in activities and collect badges. > There are limited numbers of RV/Trailer sites in NP campgrounds and would need to be booked up asap for summer travel. Check out all the NP's here.

Once the trip starts to take on a pattern we can help to offer alternatives and/or help to 'Fine tune' what you have.

As for the Travel Trailer, I would keep looking. I doubt you will have any trouble renting one for your trip, and to be honest, I have never heard of a car not being able to be taken west of the Rockies either. I think it's your experience of working in a small local company that may have you think that. A quick search for TT rentals showed plenty of results and I checked this one out at random and there seemed to be no issues about heading West. [I have had no dealings with them and therefor is not a recommendation.]

Thanks for the great info Dave - great idea about sitting on the floor with the map. We have been talking with the girls about where to go but sitting down together with a map is a great idea. I'll have my wife hunt down a USA map. the Rental place is one that I have received a quote from already. I did get one from the west side of the state that's about $200 less a week, which quite a difference. So far they have been the lowest - the only challenge/red flag is they cant tell you which TT you will get till closer to the date as it all depends on which rental units have been sold etc.... off to work!

In addition to looking at a large map, here are a few more tips that can make family road trips exciting and fun for all:

An overview article I penned on Family road trips.

A nice list of in-car games penned by Jeff Sechler

And it sounds like you're an experienced RVer, so this checklist will merely serve as a reminder -- it was written for motorhomes -- but the same basic principles apply to travel trailers too.

Mark

you can never stop learning Mark! A lot of experience with pop ups n tent camping,but we did rent an RV a few summers ago - what a blast that was! but, still have lots to learn. thanks for the link. Ton of information on this site, just need to keep going through it. Was messing around with the map features the other night.

Tap of the beer bottle to the creator of this site - great job!

If you are already a AAA member, go down to your local office and get a good USA map for free. If you're not a member, this is a good time to go get one. (No, I don't get paid for this endorsement, I'm just a happy customer at the moment.) Otherwise, a good atlas can be found here on RTA for sale, or go to your local bookstore or Wal-Mart and get one.

Sitting down with the kids is essential, at one point in the planning. At 12 and 14, they will enjoy the trip more if they had something to do with the planning. Also ask them their "druthers" about overnights, if you don't know. For ours, a pool was essential if the weather was going to cooperate enough. Otherwise, when we packed our rig, they had to bring things that they would enjoy -- a stash of books, a couple of movies (we had a TV-VCR in our rig back when our kids were that age), and some family board games.


Donna

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Originally Posted by DonnaR57

If you are already a AAA member, go down to your local office and get a good USA map for free. If you're not a member, this is a good time to go get one. (No, I don't get paid for this endorsement, I'm just a happy customer at the moment.) Otherwise, a good atlas can be found here on RTA for sale, or go to your local bookstore or Wal-Mart and get one.

Sitting down with the kids is essential, at one point in the planning. At 12 and 14, they will enjoy the trip more if they had something to do with the planning. Also ask them their "druthers" about overnights, if you don't know. For ours, a pool was essential if the weather was going to cooperate enough. Otherwise, when we packed our rig, they had to bring things that they would enjoy -- a stash of books, a couple of movies (we had a TV-VCR in our rig back when our kids were that age), and some family board games.


Donna

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thanks Donna for the tips! AAA travel was our destination this week to get a map and sit down and talk with the kids to get their input. The one challenge is they only know the places to go that we've talked about. Other than pulling top ten lists for them to view, any way to get their input without it being biased?

great idea on the board games - never know what mother nature could bring. We do have a DVD player in the truck that they'll have access to part of the trip, but not the entire trip. they need to at least be electronics free for part of it...

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Originally Posted by michigancamper

The one challenge is they only know the places to go that we've talked about. Other than pulling top ten lists for them to view, any way to get their input without it being biased?

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Encourage your daughters to research each place through which your route(s) may take you. Not just the big cities. Look on the map, on the internet, in magazines, etc. and put the names of the places into their favourite search engine. These could be towns, national or state parks, historical sites, or just a name on the map, and no one knows what that word stands for.

Furthermore, when you are watching television, or reading books, magazine or the daily papers, and a place name is mentioned, ANYPLACE! ANYWHERE! search to see where it is, what is there, etc. Make sure you have a good sized note book, and write down what you find out about each place... even if you think you may not be interested. Just write down everything you find - one place to a page. If nothing else, it expands the whole family's general knowledge base.

When our children were young, we used to have a map of the city where we live on the wall, and a map of the State in which we live as well as a map of the whole country. Along side of all of those were maps of Western Europe (my place of birth and father's frequent destination for work) and a map of the world.

At any time the children came across a place name, be it in a book, magazine, newspaper or heard it mentioned on telly, which they did not know where it was, we would search to find where it was. And this was long before the days of computers and search engines. Consequently the children all grew up with a good knowledge of where places are... all over the world.

My motto always was.... children learn nothing from nice clean walls. (And it saved on painting! lol)

Lifey

searching places we haven't heard of it is one thing we have been doing for the past couple years, but didn't even think about it using it as a way to compile destinations for our trip.

Whats the best method/software for planning out the trip - meaning so we'll have an idea of where we'll be for campgrounds where we need to make reservations..? I used to use Microsoft streets and maps and you can plan your route, including how many days you were staying over, but with a MAC and Windows 7 computer in the house - the software is old and unusable. I've tried Google, Yahoo, the mapping on this site, but havent come across similar software. not looking to nail our trip down the minute, but for planning purposes when it comes to locations that may require reservations now, and not last minute.

thanks again !

Have you used the "Draw Circles" tool on the Map Center. It's an excellent way to see what cities/towns are your likely stopping places on any road trip. Armed with that information, I'd use one of the campground directories (or you can use the online versions) to start to narrow down which campgrounds you like.

I like the format of the Frommer's directory

Woodall's is the one I usually prefer to use though.

Microsoft Streets & Trips should run fine on Windows 7.

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Originally Posted by glc

Microsoft Streets & Trips should run fine on Windows 7.

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even though its not formatted for windows 7?

If you have a copy, install it.

As a matter of fact, version 2008 and newer *requires* Vista or 7, it won't run on XP and earlier.

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Originally Posted by glc

If you have a copy, install it.

As a matter of fact, version 2008 and newer *requires* Vista or 7, it won't run on XP and earlier.

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our copy isnt that new..LOL its 2005. Tried to install last night but it just kept spinning when it was trying to copy the files. Being that its 7 years old - time for an upgrade, which is really no big deal.

thanks for the help GLC!

crazy question.. :D

On a travel trailer, I take it the fridge can run off the generator while on the road??

I'm not an expert on the topic, but I'm pretty sure you typically want to run the fridge off of your LP tanks while actually on the road.

ah you know what - I think you might be right. Trying to remember what we did when we rented the RV a few years ago.

If you like S&T and you have a Windows 7 PC, the list price for the current version is $40 - but you can buy previous editions (such as 2010) online for as little as $15.

I'm still running 2007 - because I still run XP.

If the RV is a 2-way (propane/electric), you'll run it on propane while you are towing. There are states that require you to shut the fridge down while you are in a gas station (something you may want to do, even if the state law doesn't say so).

There are three way fridges (propane/electric/battery), but we never had much luck keeping the fridge cold on battery power while traveling.

thanks everyone.

I looked in Best Buy for mapping software but amazingly they have nothing in stock, nor available online. Think we'll end up getting it online at amazon or. . Did see the mapping software link here within RTA.

Thanks for the info Donna on the fridge!

as we have a Win 7 and Mac computer, I'm reading about nothing but problems loading Streets and Trips 2011 ($19 at amazon) onto Windows 7 computers.. anyone else successful or not so successful?

2 adults
2 kids - 12 and 14 at the time of the trip

After some great advice a few weeks ago on this board, just checking back in with an update on our planned trip. While trying to not schedule our trip day to day, we are having to in some cases of course due to reservations in popular areas. So far this is what our trip is looking like with the input of the wife and kids:

Leave Fenton MI
Stop in Wisconsin Dells for the night
Stop in Mitchell SD for the night
Stop at Corn Palace for the night
Yellowstone for 4 days
Twin Falls ID for the night
Bosie for the night
Crater Lake Area for the night
Redwood forest for the night
San Fran for 4 days
LA for 3 days
San Diego for 7 days
Hoover Dam for the night
Havasu Falls for the night
Grand canyon for 4 days
Sante Fe for 3 days
Amarillo Tx for the night
Oklahoma for the night
Ozarks for 3 days
Yellville AR for three days (family and friends there)
Springfield IL for the night
Home.

trying as much as possible to not have one day after another of driving, but also some multiple days here and there to hang out, relax and see the sights. What started as a four week trip is now five weeks :) I have 7 weeks off but would rather not spend the whole vacation on the road. :)

thoughts, suggestions?

Moderator Note: Please keep all questions about this trip in the same thread.

Your trip looks doable, other than getting from the Corn Place to Yellowstone in a day, but I suspect that's a typo as the Corn Palace is in Mitchell, that you have already mentioned. [?]

The part that stands out to me the most is the west coast where you have 2 weeks spent in 3 City's. If it were me, I would be breaking that down a little differently and at the very least spend a night [or 2] driving the scenic PCH between SF and LA. I would also have to mention Yosemite, for me one of the most wonderful places on earth and a place where an RV is much more at 'home'. I would consider spending 2 of your 4 nights just to the North of SF and just to the south. Although that won't give you quite full days there, the SF RV parks are limited in number and some resemble little more than a parking lot with ameneties and leave you feeling 'squeezed' in.

You might have to reconsider Havasu Falls. It is on primative Indian lands and would mean a very long hike or a Helicopter flight, you won't get anywhere close with an RV.

I would also split the journey from GC to Santa Fe and go to Monument Valley and perhaps Four Corners Monument. Four corners is a bit of a tacky tourist trap, but it would be a unique opportunity to take a picture of a foot and a leg [or each family member] in a different State. FRom Monument Valley it is only a short detour. If you wanted to break it up even more, I would suggest another night and head through MV to Mesa Verde NP and then visit the Hot Springs at Pagosa Springs before Santa Fe.

Admittedly, I live in the San Diego area and have seen about everything SD has to offer, so I'm wondering what the draw is that leaves you in San Diego for 7 days.

San Diego Zoo - 1 day
Wild Animal Park (now Safari Park) - 1 day
Sea World - 1 day
Old Town San Diego - 1 day
Beach - 1 day

That's what I see. You could venture out and see things outside of San Diego with the spare time, or if spending $175/person for Zoo-Wild Animal Park-Sea World days is more than you bargained/budgeted for. I can offer some suggestions, if you're interested.


Donna

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Originally Posted by DonnaR57

Admittedly, I live in the San Diego area and have seen about everything SD has to offer, so I'm wondering what the draw is that leaves you in San Diego for 7 days.
Donna

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Hey Donna, great point on San Diego. My aunt/uncle and cousins (from my dad's side) live in SD so we'll be seeing them as well as hitting some of the sights. I also know the the girls will want to see Coronado. My wife came out to SD for a weekend in June when I was out there for a meeting. Our time frame in SD is somewhat liquid as our reservation at Santee Lakes is for 10 days but we can change as needed with 48 hours notice. We also are having my mom fly out while we are there as its been years since she has been to SD. I know we wont be doing Sea World as we hit that up in Florida. Any family friendly suggestions?

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Originally Posted by Southwest Dave

Your trip looks doable, other than getting from the Corn Place to Yellowstone in a day, but I suspect that's a typo as the Corn Palace is in Mitchell, that you have already mentioned. Yep, we are stopping in Sturgis I believe it is for the night.. or at least that's our plan currently. [?]

The part that stands out to me the most is the west coast where you have 2 weeks spent in 3 City's. If it were me, I would be breaking that down a little differently and at the very least spend a night [or 2] driving the scenic PCH between SF and LA. I would also have to mention Yosemite, for me one of the most wonderful places on earth and a place where an RV is much more at 'home'. I would consider spending 2 of your 4 nights just to the North of SF and just to the south. Although that won't give you quite full days there, the SF RV parks are limited in number and some resemble little more than a parking lot with ameneties and leave you feeling 'squeezed' in. I noticed the same thing looking at the RV parks north of Napa and south. My wife and I worked for a company based out of Napa for years while its an amazing area, not sure how much the kids would appreciate it as much as adults. I may have to reconfigure the drive/stops to southern CA as I do remember that drive as being amazing.

You might have to reconsider Havasu Falls. It is on primative Indian lands and would mean a very long hike or a Helicopter flight, you won't get anywhere close with an RV. This is a place my wife found online - any idea how long of a hike it is? I was under the impression is was pretty short. She may need to do some additional reading...

I would also split the journey from GC to Santa Fe and go to Monument Valley and perhaps Four Corners Monument. Four corners is a bit of a tacky tourist trap, but it would be a unique opportunity to take a picture of a foot and a leg [or each family member] in a different State. This was something we had a side trip and like Wall-drug, didn't include in my update. From Monument Valley it is only a short detour. If you wanted to break it up even more, I would suggest another night and head through MV to Mesa Verde NP and then visit the Hot Springs at Pagosa Springs before Santa Fe.Definitely have to look at reworking our route. I'll put my wife up to some research this week as I'm headed back to work. Thank you for all the great tips!!!

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See the bold for my responses...

This link has most info regarding a visit to Havasu Falls. From the Hilltop it's an 8 mile hike each way and is not classed as easy.

San Diego family friendly:

San Diego Zoo -- best zoo in the US
Wild Animal Park/Safari Park -- related to the zoo, but a lot more open.
You can buy a combination pass that will include both places.

Old Town State Park -- park and walk around this historic area. Just outside of the State Park area is the Mexican neighborhood with lots of fun shops and good restaurants. All are pretty family friendly!

Mission San Diego -- another historic place.

A great one day road trip: from Santee Lakes, head north on Rt 67 towards Ramona and Julian. In Ramona, the route changes number, so just follow signs to Santa Ysabel and Julian. There are some antique shops in Ramona, as well as a few good Mexican restaurants (one is right behind McDonald's, called La Salsa). The other is in "downtown" called La Cocina. In Santa Ysabel, you may find the aroma of a bakery -- stop at the bakery there, they make fantastic bread! Up to Julian in the mountains, there is an old gold mine, plus some museums and of course the famous Julian Bakery --- try an apple pie. (Yes, this is somewhat an eating trip!) Continue out of Julian towards Laguna on the Sunrise Highway, or go to Cuyamaca State Park if you'd like instead. Once off Sunrise Highway or Hwy 79 to Cuyamaca and Descanso, head west on I-8 back to Santee. If you go through Pine Valley on Olde Hwy 80, you can stop at the Pine Hills Lodge -- I believe that is where a ghost lives. :-)

The beach is ALWAYS family friendly. We are military and always use the one at North Island, but others love Mission Beach, or Del Mar State Beach, or go further up the coast to one of the state park beaches. Just watch out if this trip is in June ... we have "June Gloom" where the sun doesn't like to burn through the marine layer until noon!

Hope this gives you some ideas.


Donna

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Originally Posted by Southwest Dave

This link has most info regarding a visit to Havasu Falls. From the Hilltop it's an 8 mile hike each way and is not classed as easy.

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Only 8 miles? (OP note: actually 10 miles... even better!) Piece of cake. Not. If we were 20 again. And didn't have 12 and 14 year old daughters at the time. Clearly she didn't investigate the logistics behind getting there. A big thank you for taking the time to find the info Dave!!

Without posters like you, newbies like us would been embarking on a hike to **** joined by the "Bickersons'" LOL

anyone looking for some info on Havasu Falls
http://www.naturalbornhikers.com/Hav...vasuCanyon.htm

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Originally Posted by DonnaR57

San Diego family friendly:

San Diego Zoo -- best zoo in the US
Wild Animal Park/Safari Park -- related to the zoo, but a lot more open.
You can buy a combination pass that will include both places.

Old Town State Park -- park and walk around this historic area. Just outside of the State Park area is the Mexican neighborhood with lots of fun shops and good restaurants. All are pretty family friendly!

Mission San Diego -- another historic place.

A great one day road trip: from Santee Lakes, head north on Rt 67 towards Ramona and Julian. In Ramona, the route changes number, so just follow signs to Santa Ysabel and Julian. There are some antique shops in Ramona, as well as a few good Mexican restaurants (one is right behind McDonald's, called La Salsa). The other is in "downtown" called La Cocina. In Santa Ysabel, you may find the aroma of a bakery -- stop at the bakery there, they make fantastic bread! Up to Julian in the mountains, there is an old gold mine, plus some museums and of course the famous Julian Bakery --- try an apple pie. (Yes, this is somewhat an eating trip!) Continue out of Julian towards Laguna on the Sunrise Highway, or go to Cuyamaca State Park if you'd like instead. Once off Sunrise Highway or Hwy 79 to Cuyamaca and Descanso, head west on I-8 back to Santee. If you go through Pine Valley on Olde Hwy 80, you can stop at the Pine Hills Lodge -- I believe that is where a ghost lives. :-)

The beach is ALWAYS family friendly. We are military and always use the one at North Island, but others love Mission Beach, or Del Mar State Beach, or go further up the coast to one of the state park beaches. Just watch out if this trip is in June ... we have "June Gloom" where the sun doesn't like to burn through the marine layer until noon!

Hope this gives you some ideas.


Donna

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Great ideas, thank you so much for taking the time to share Donna! I know at least two of the days will be spent at the beach. Another question for you - Best place to see fireworks?? We will be there over the Fourth of July holiday..

Ok - more refining Dave - with going as far north as we may with some of your great suggestions - is it worth to go Colorado and see Pikes Peak than down to the Ozarks?

We may never make it home.. LOL

This starts to come down to personal tastes and style of travel etc, but if it were I, Yes I would tend to head into Colorado. It would seem you have about 10 days between Hoover Dam and the Ozarks which for me would be an opportunity to stretch yourself a little thinner in stops and reach out a bit more. Pikes Peak would be one of many options.

From GC through Monument Valley you could head towards Moab where nearby is Arches and Canyonlands NP's. From there along I70 you have the likes of Colorado National Monument, Glenwood Springs, Loveland Pass and Rocky Mountain NP near to I70, as well as heading to Pikes Peak.

If you were to head to Durango from Monument Valley [nearby is Mesa Verde NP] then you could head north on the spectacular 'Million Dollar Highway' [US550] through the mountain towns of Silverton and Ouray. Heading east from Montrose on US50 you would pass Black canyon of the Gunnison, Currecanti Recreation area and over Monarch Pass to Poncha Springs and then through the Pike National Forest to Woodland park [Pikes peak] and Manitou Springs [Garden of the Gods and Cave of the Winds.]

Either option could be 'tweaked' in many different ways and each would be about 4 days of driving betweeen the Dam and the Ozarks. If you want to get a better picture of the area, you will find my trip report titled 'Denver through Four Corners Loop' among the stickies in the Roadtrip Field report forum.

So what about you ?

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We may never make it home.. LOL

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Too true !!

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Originally Posted by michigancamper

2 adults
2 kids - 12 and 14 at the time of the trip

After some great advice a few weeks ago on this board, just checking back in with an update on our planned trip. While trying to not schedule our trip day to day, we are having to in some cases of course due to reservations in popular areas. So far this is what our trip is looking like with the input of the wife and kids:

Leave Fenton MI
Stop in Wisconsin Dells for the night
Stop in Mitchell SD for the night
Stop at Corn Palace for the night
Yellowstone for 4 days
Twin Falls ID for the night
Bosie for the night
Crater Lake Area for the night
Redwood forest for the night
San Fran for 4 days
LA for 3 days
San Diego for 7 days
Hoover Dam for the night
Havasu Falls for the night
Grand canyon for 4 days
Sante Fe for 3 days
Amarillo Tx for the night
Oklahoma for the night
Ozarks for 3 days
Yellville AR for three days (family and friends there)
Springfield IL for the night
Home.

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don't know if you've ever been to Wisconsin Dells, WI before, but if not, you will find a plethora of neat things to do for the entire day (heck, an entire week!) from mini golf, rollercoasters, the waterparks, helicopter rides over the city and rivers, to restaurants to campgrounds and fishing and boat rides and other awesome things.

so if you're just stopping there to look around for a few hours, sleep and then leave, you may want to find another city, one that is not so... fun and distracting (if sleep and rest is your goal) :D

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Originally Posted by Southwest Dave

This starts to come down to personal tastes and style of travel etc, but if it were I, Yes I would tend to head into Colorado. It would seem you have about 10 days between Hoover Dam and the Ozarks which for me would be an opportunity to stretch yourself a little thinner in stops and reach out a bit more. Pikes Peak would be one of many options.

So what about you ?

Too true !!

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back to the drawing board! LOL. Based on your pictures alone, I think we need tweak our route a bit to maximize those 3-4 days. thanks for the ideas!!

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Originally Posted by iam1bearcat

don't know if you've ever been to Wisconsin Dells, WI before, but if not, you will find a plethora of neat things to do for the entire day (heck, an entire week!) from mini golf, rollercoasters, the waterparks, helicopter rides over the city and rivers, to restaurants to campgrounds and fishing and boat rides and other awesome things.

so if you're just stopping there to look around for a few hours, sleep and then leave, you may want to find another city, one that is not so... fun and distracting (if sleep and rest is your goal) :D

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Haven't been to the dell's, but was looking for a spot to spend the night as thats about 8 hours from home and our first night out. If we leave early enough, we can get pretty far, all depending on traffic in Chicago. Although now that I think about it more - maybe we'll head up through the UP and over and down - it does about 3 hours to the driving but, we avoid the fun of driving in chicago with a Trailer. And to be honest - I've been to Chicago a million times for work and pleasure. Hmmmm.

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Originally Posted by michigancamper

Haven't been to the dell's, but was looking for a spot to spend the night as thats about 8 hours from home and our first night out. If we leave early enough, we can get pretty far, all depending on traffic in Chicago. Although now that I think about it more - maybe we'll head up through the UP and over and down - it does about 3 hours to the driving but, we avoid the fun of driving in chicago with a Trailer. And to be honest - I've been to Chicago a million times for work and pleasure. Hmmmm.

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i personally, would avoid this part of the route (Chicago) since you've been here before. it will make that part of the trip just "blah" and not very fun since you've seen it before. also, Chicago, like many major cities, is awful to drive through (unless your plan was to go around it and not so-much through it) and i personally HATE major cities and freeways, so i would say avoid it for those reasons.

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Originally Posted by iam1bearcat

i personally, would avoid this part of the route (Chicago) since you've been here before. it will make that part of the trip just "blah" and not very fun since you've seen it before. also, Chicago, like many major cities, is awful to drive through (unless your plan was to go around it and not so-much through it) and i personally HATE major cities and freeways, so i would say avoid it for those reasons.

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Thank you for the confirmation on what we were thinking. While Chicago is great, been there, done that and as you said - the whole traffic thing, coupled with a Trailer, could be a major kink in the fun quotient. even though going through the UP will add about three hours, thinking it'll be better than the possible mess in Chicago.

One of our radio stations sponsors the 4th of July Fireworks set to music, often patriotic music. The locations are all over the county. There's a place in Santee, or there usually is. (A long time ago it was in the center of Santee, but that's been 20 years.) I'm sure the grocery stores or shops in Santee will know where the closest place is.

Donna