Reliance on GPS navigation systems not recommended

We who participate in the RTA Forums often advise against reliance on GPS navigation systems as a sole method of finding one's way. The recent discovery of Rita Chretien, age 56, in her van, which had been stuck in remote high desert mountains of northeast Nevada for over 7 weeks brings that advice into focus yet again.

Mrs. Chretien her husband, Albert, age 59, had apparently sought a scenic route while traveling from their British Columbia home to Las Vegas. They traveled down a series of roads seldom used in winter, got stuck, and the wife remained with the van while the husband took the GPS unit and walked out looking for help on Day 3. He has not been see or heard from since and it's highly unlikely he survived. The wife survived 49 days on a small amount of food they'd had in the van and on drinking melted snow and creek water.

A spokesman for the Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest, Mike Balen, was highly critical of reliance on GPS units, saying his NF staff knew of others who'd gotten in trouble using GPS. "I would never trust any of those things. The will lead you astray", he said.

There is, quite simply, no COMPLETE substitute for a good map and the ability to read it, none whatsoever.

Be careful out there, RoadTrippers!

Foy

Foy, I know of three instances in that last month or two of people relying on GPS without tempering it with a bit of common sense and map-reading abilities. Here's an older post that looks at this in more detail....

Good reminder!

Mark

Quite apart from the fact that they are unreliable, GPS units have always exasperated me because we rarely agree on routes. They are designed with certain kinds of routes in mind and if you try to get them away from those, they do their best to bring you back 'on track'.

I agree that there is nothing like working out your route with a map and then perhaps using a GPS as a backup - I use it mostly to find addresses.

yaya

Aside from the gripping news of Mrs. Chretien's survival and the likely loss of her husband, this caught my eye due to my having recently spent some time with my Benchmark Nevada and Idaho map books doing some preliminary planning (aka "daydreaming") for a day's side-trip while enroute to southwest Montana in July of this year.

The Chretiens had to have entered Nevada from Idaho since the location they became stuck at is not yet accessible even by the Forest Service's Elko and Jarbridge, NV offices. A little further south, and likely part of their "planned" traverse, lies a massif forming the divide between the Oyhee, Bruneau, and Humboldt rivers. Elevations there are +7,000', hence the Forest Service's statement "we can't even get there from Elko yet", even this week, due to roads being still buried in deep drifts. It was the second snowiest winter there since 1979.

The two Benchmark map books, with all the detail anybody with a streak of common sense should need, cost around $45. Internet research is free. That's all these folks needed, and not having availed themselves of the resources available cost one of them their life. Nearly both of them, as Mrs. Chretien lost 20-30 lbs and was said to have been near death when she was found last weekend.

Reliance solely on GPS strikes me as just as shortsighted as the teenage McDonald's cashier making change for my coffee. I often wonder if I'd get $679.35 in change for my $5 bill if the digital readout on the cash register happened to display it.

Foy

Besides the basic flaw of relying solely on electronics, the husband added the flawed idea of going for help. It has been proven time and again, that, when in trouble, the greatest chance of being found and survival is staying with the vehicle.

But as noted above, the solution lies in the preparation. A visit to the ranger's station, good comprehensive maps, and the ability to read them.

Lifey

Computer mapping programs aren't immune to these issues either.

Personal case in point - I use Microsoft Streets & Trips on a laptop with a GPS module in my vehicle, and I use it for route planning. Last September, I was heading through Oregon into California on my way to San Diego. I plotted a route from Klamath Falls to Lassen - and the software wanted to send me up Military Pass Road instead of through Weed. It *looked* like an interesting "shortcut" but I decided to research it a bit. When I saw that it wasn't paved and was prone to a lot of silt, I decided that it would not be wise, especially in a 2wd vehicle and traveling alone. Software doesn't know road conditions, it just knows that a road has been mapped and apparently the speed algorithms calculated that it would be a shorter route. It looks like even if I had taken it and been able to get through with no issues, it still would have been a lot longer timewise - it was only 20 miles shorter and you sure can't make the kind of time on a dirt forest road as you can on real highways. According to the mapping program, the road is 27 miles long and the things I find on line say that it takes 3 to 4 hours to take that road. Software says 46 minutes.

Dear Readers,

This link (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/5...tml.csp?page=1) provides much more detail as to the Chretien's trip. Their intended destination of Jackpot, NV is on US 93 at the ID line, and is a good 60-70 miles as the crow flies from ID 51/NV 225. The story notes it is yet unclear what their exact route was, but if they were out of the Snake River basin and into the foothills or the mountains themselves and tried to bushwhack to Jackpot, it was the poorest possible decision. I'm hoping they were well inside of ID along ID 51 north of Owyhee, NV and were at least trying to get over to US 93 outside of the mountains and just turned south into them before reaching 93. If they got as far as Owyhee or Mountain City, NV first and tried to bushwhack to Jackpot, oh my goodness what a foolish thing to do.

More detail here: http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-no...nds_steps.html

Apparently I was correct in deducing they tried a bushwhack before getting to the mountains, but the hardcopy Benchmark map books I've been studying clearly show the road they took out of Grasmere to go directly south-southeast into the mountains along the divide between the Owyhee and Bruneau rivers, then east-southeast down into the canyon of the Bruneau River, crossing the river, then over TWO passes before getting over towards Jarbridge and Jackpot. Goodness gracious! This was Mission: Impossible from the get-go.

Foy

Regardless of whether or not the road was passable, if you are going into sparsely-populated lightly-traveled territory in a single vehicle you are subject to getting stuck (accidents, car problems, etc.).

After the sad tale of the family in Oregon I decided to pony up the cash for a PLB (personal locator beacon). Never had to use it, probably never will, but it goes in the car for EVERY roadtrip... regardless of where I think we're going to be.

Not a guarantee it will work and people will find you, but it increases your odds significantly.

Can you say more about a PLB? I am driving from Mystic, CT to Portland, OR next month, my first trip to the north west, and trying to get a handle on gear I may need in less populated areas.

A PLB can be invaluable in the backcountry, but if you are simply traveling on mainstream roads I don't see the need for one. They start at about $200 for cheap ones. Even in less populated areas, civilization will be driving on the same roads as you.

I agree; only if you're planning on heading off onto Forest Service roads....

Having driven from the east coast to the west coast, across the northern States, at least eight times, and mostly off the Interstates, I can assure you, you won't need any special gear. That is, assuming you will not be doing any serious back country touring. Even on the minor roads, you'd never be an hour without seeing another vehicle or house or town. You will not be travelling into any remote areas.

I'd just go with the normal gear you have in your vehicle, all in good condition. Take some snacks and plenty of water, to enjoy along the way.

Travel safely.

Lifey

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CalOldBlue

Regardless of whether or not the road was passable, if you are going into sparsely-populated lightly-traveled territory in a single vehicle you are subject to getting stuck (accidents, car problems, etc.).

After the sad tale of the family in Oregon I decided to pony up the cash for a PLB (personal locator beacon). Never had to use it, probably never will, but it goes in the car for EVERY roadtrip... regardless of where I think we're going to be.

Not a guarantee it will work and people will find you, but it increases your odds significantly.

---

When we are going to remote areas, I tell my Mom where we are heading. Nothing like a Mom to keep track of you when they don't hear from you that evening!

A (final?) thought... even on reasonably well-travelled roads there are rare cases where a PLB could help. There has been a case or two locally where a driver lost control, the car went down a ravine, and the driver survived but was trapped in the vehicle. Thankfully in the case I'm recalling, the driver was found (alive) after a couple of days. IF the driver had a PLB and IF it was accessable to the driver (i.e. not in the trunk) and IF it had sufficient view of the sky, the rescue could have been expedited.

Also note: I like to hike on vacations, the PLB is as much for that as for the car.

Here in the heavily-vegetated South, auto + driver disappearances happen with some regularity. Not an everyday event, of course, but every year or two we see such a story. The victims are normally discovered only after the leaves are down in late October/early November.

The PLB might expedite dispatch of assistance in a medical emergency, too, where perhaps hours would pass before someone stopped to check on a car at a rest area, an Interstate off-ramp, or at a two-lane highway pullout. Yes, in many places a cellphone would/could work, but in many places, they don't, and it can be rather more difficult to place a phone call during a cardiac arrest than to "pull the ripcord" on a PLB, I'd guess.

Foy

Thanks for the responses! I feel pretty good about most of the cross-country trip except for two stretches, one from Rapid City, Sd to Billings Montana and a stretch from Cody Wyoming to Idaho Falls through Yellowstone. I planned to talk to the locals about if my Outback can handle the trip from the NE entrance to the west entrance of Yellowstone. I plan to be there on June 10, and hear that some Yellowstone roads may still be closed even then. It would cost about $270 for a sat phone for the month I would be on the road. Would this be a more useful substitute for a $200 PLB?

Sorry for the delays getting back to the forum. I am new to this and couldn't locate the thread. dec

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by David Cournoyer

I planned to talk to the locals about if my Outback can handle the trip from the NE entrance to the west entrance of Yellowstone.

---

With an Outback you'll be lauging in those areas. My Dodge Caravan - not the most stable vehicle on the road - handled it OK, though I was longing for my AWD Outback. It was late May in 2009, and the road into the park was open.

If you like the country out there, may I suggest that you turn off I-90 at Sheridan, and take Alt 14 over the BigHorn Mountains, past the Medicine Wheel and the Big Horn Canyon, onto Cody via Lovell.

Another great road and pass is the Beartooth Highway and Pass, which would mean a detour from Cody via Red Lodge. But don't be fooled by the distance. It is a slow road, but the view all the way up and from the top takes your breath away.

Lifey

I don't think you would need a sat phone or a PLB in those areas - they are well-traveled. If I can travel through there in October with a 2 wheel drive F-150, you can certainly do it in an Outback. Bring a wifi-equipped laptop with you and check on weather and road conditions before leaving the hotel in the morning, or find a Starbucks or McDonalds for breakfast and check.

I can't say with absolute certainty, but I'm fairly sure my Verizon cell phone had consistent coverage all along I-90 from Gillette to Billings and from Crow Agency, MT to Belle Fourche, SD. I distinctly recall phoning my wife from Gillette and again when closer to the MT border, and one of my sons phoned me when I well away from towns in between Lame Deer and Broadus, MT on US 212.

Foy

Not gonna lie, I love my GPS unit alot.

45K miles on it and have never been lost. When I put the address it takes me to the address and the "ETA" that it shows is very precise.

========


Though I would advice to have couple maps and a gps unit, incase either of the things fail.

Lifey, thanks for the tip on Beartooth Highway. The AAA trip planner gave me that route by default from Billings, MT to the K bar Z ranch outside of Cody, WY were I will be staying. I picked up the benchmark map suggested in this thread and the Beartooth Highway and Pass looks like a wild ride, but potentially great. Know anything about gas availability along that stretch?

There is no shortage of gas stations in Yellowstone, but I would top up your tank in Billings or Red lodge [the latter only slightly dearer than the cheapest in Billings] as it will be be cheaper than in the NP.

There is no gas between Red Lodge and Cooke City that I'm aware of - no big deal, that's only 65 miles. Even if you take the Beartooth, then head back to Cody on the Chief Joseph Highway, it's only 115 miles.

When I was up there last fall, I filled up in Jackson, then headed up through Grand Teton NP, then up through Yellowstone and on out to West Yellowstone for the night. The next day, I went back through Yellowstone and drove around for half a day, then took the Beartooth out and didn't get gas again till I got to Billings.

All my cars come with a feature that warns me when the gas dips below about a half tank. The lower it gets the more insistent the alarm gets. It's called "Linda".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by David Cournoyer

Know anything about gas availability along that stretch?

---

http://www.roadtripamerica.com/forum...0&d=1244157899

If I recall correctly, there is the Top of the World store where fuel is available... at a price! But, as already mentioned, If you fill up at one of the places above, there should not be any need to fill up again until after you are through the park.

I suggest that you stop at the store and avail yourself of their great hot chocolate or coffee - serve yourself, 85 cents in 2009. A great place to take a break. Just make sure your camera is fully charged... you'll need it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by David Cournoyer

... and Pass looks like a wild ride, but potentially great.

---

It is a fantastic road - my kinda ride - but be assured it will take you three or four hours (including photo stops) to drive it. Of course if like me, you get 'lost' among all the treasures in the Store, it will take even longer. But worth every minute of it!!

Fellow travelers,

In late August, the Elko County, NV Sheriff's office noted another search for the remains of Albert Chretien had then recently taken place. No sign of his body or his GPS unit were found. The Sheriff plans no further searching, but noted it's possible autumn hunters will find something.

Keep those maps and compasses on board, folks, and know how to use them.

Foy

I know they cost a couple hundred bucks (or a little more), but if you're going to be in the habit of going into the boonies, either on wheels or by foot, it could save your life.

Personal Locator Beacons. Now portable and available for public purchase. Fire yours up and it sends a signal to the SARSAT (Search and Rescue Sattellite) system "come and get me".

Just needs a clear view of the sky; no cell towers needed.

Just my two cents.

Would have to agree, CalOldBlue.

Though I had to be talked into it, it was a great source of comfort and confidence on my trip into Outback Australia. I was able to hire one locally, for a mere fraction of the purchase price. From the company I learned that they rent out hundreds, every month. On their website they document the stories of some of the folk whom they have rescued.

I wonder if they are available for hire in the US. As one who likes to get off the beaten path, it could be useful.

On the other hand, as I read it, the Chretiens had not planned to go off road.... they were led astray by their gps. And as such, probably would never have thought to prepare for that.

It is a conundrum!

Lifey

Yes, you can rent them here. 30 bucks a week for a PLB and 40 bucks a week for a EPIRB. You can buy a PLB for less than $300 on amazon.com.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by glc

Yes, you can rent them here. 30 bucks a week for a PLB and 40 bucks a week for a EPIRB. You can buy a PLB for less than $300 on amazon.com.

---

Here I'll encourage any with the time, expertise, and inclination to make a new post discussing the PLB and EPIRB units. While purchase of one seems logical for the frequent back country driver, I wonder about the long-term ownership requirements in terms of signal testing and battery maintenance/life, as I seem to recall EPIRBs used in marine applications must undergo regular testing, etc.

We never made the July 2011 trek through the area where the Chretiens became marooned--snow had key passes closed even into early July. We're now pondering (read: daydreaming) about a mega-traverse from Rogerson, ID, through Jarbidge, Bruneau Canyon (Rowland), Mountain City, Jack Creek, and Midas, to Golconda, NV, in mid-July 2012. Something like 200 miles sans asphalt (excepting just a bit at Mountain City), with drive-ups of Merritt Mountain and Porter's Peak. If our group attempts this, we'll probably want a signal unit of some sort on board, so I am interested in the devices.

Foy

Most newer units have something like a 5 year battery life, and a 10-12 year 'service' life.

Depending on manufacturer, make and model there are self tests; some will support a satellite self test. These will eat some battery, but are recommended from time to time (some units support hundreds of self tests over the 5 year battery life).

Battery replacement can require manufacturer involvement, and is recommended when you hit the battery life mark (5 years or whatever).

I'm getting close to needing a battery changeout.

Also note there is another difference: some PLBs have built in GPS units, these pinpoint your location better than ones that do not (but also cost more). They transmit your location to the satellite; the other varients depend on the satellites being able to triangulate you, plus they transmit (for a day or two) a local signal for the searchers to home in on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CalOldBlue

Also note there is another difference: some PLBs have built in GPS units, these pinpoint your location better than ones that do not (but also cost more). They transmit your location to the satellite; the other varients depend on the satellites being able to triangulate you, plus they transmit (for a day or two) a local signal for the searchers to home in on.

---

That is what I was told by the company when I hired the Epirb.

And I have been thinking, they are more relevant to roadtripping that most of us may think. The other day I was reminded of an incident I experienced in 2001. I was on the BRP in heavy fog. Hardly able to see the lines on the road, I carefully manouvered off the road at the first opportunity. Ten days later I was on the Staten Island Ferry. A passenger near me had a huge mark of fresh blood on the back of her shirt. I asked if she was aware of it.

During the conversation I learned that she and her sister were on the BRP in heavy fog, when the car left the road and fell 1600' before coming to rest against a tree. Their little terrier dog got out through a broken window, and stood barking by the side of the road, which alerted a passing motorist. He followed the dog down the hill, to find the two women badly injured, but alive.

If it had not been for that little dog..... and the motorist.....

Lifey

Would you believe it... their gps and a low tide... and they took off-road to a whole new level!

Quote:

---

Three Japanese tourists came unstuck on their planned Australian holiday on Thursday when they abandoned their hire car in Moreton Bay after they tried to "drive" to North Stradbroke Island.

The low tide and a GPS navigation system lured them into the bay at Oyster Point at Cleveland.

---

Brisbane Times

Lifey

It would appear that every culture and nationality has its lemmings, driven to self-destruction by forces I'll never comprehend.

Glad only the car was killed in this incident.

The entire summer of 2011 came and went without discovery of the body of Al Chretien in Nevada's Copper Mountains.

Foy

I use a laptop with MS Streets & Trips and a USB GPS module - if I plan a route from anywhere to "Crater Lake NP", it drives me out into the middle of the lake.

Fans of "Wait, Wait! Don't Tell Me" on NPR every Saturday, will no doubt have heard the quiz of the three news stories, only one of which is true. Today's true story was not hard to guess. We've seen it all before, albeit not on a ship.

Lifey

This thread may be old, but certainly still relevant.

Fortunately no one was hurt, but it was disturbing to read that it is by no means the first time. At night the railway tracks look just like a road on the little screen. Poor Mr GPS does not know the difference..... and the humans trust him with their lives.

While looking for this story, I came across a similar incident in OH, some months ago.

Interesting how the ages are typically 'new tech geeks'.

As the song went..... When will they ever learn.

After my mishaps Sept last year, I have not used a GPS, not in the US, not at home.

(Two good GPS going cheap!)

Lifey