College graduation 30 day cross country trip

Myself and 5 friends are planning a cross-country trip following college graduation this summer. We'll start about June 4, and aim to finish by July 4 (most of us have to begin or return to jobs almost immediately after that). That gives us 30 days; I planned the trip in 27, to give us three days of flex time.

We plan to purchase an old school bus and take out most of the seats, and install some couches, bunks, and hammocks for sleeping. We'll also put in a fridge (likely run off a deep-cycle marine battery) and bring along a grill for cooking. We are also going to do a vegetable oil conversion to save on gas costs.

All of us have experience living together for extended periods, extensive camping experience, and with driving for long periods.

The main things I'm looking for is advice on our budget, route (any other places we should plan to stop, best route to take, etc) and general plan, though any thoughts or words of wisdom are welcome.

Budget
Bus + insurance + registration: $2000
Veggie oil conversion: $500 (we can do the labor ourselves)
Interior upgrades: $100 (can get most things off craigslist or from our garages)
Food + alcohol: $30 day * 30 * 6 = 5400
Camping permits = $15 * 20 = $450
Fuel = 9178 miles * .2 (assuming 80% veggie oil usage) / 15 mpg * $4 gallon = 489
Total: 8939 / 6 = $1489 each

Day 1
6 AM: Leave Boston for NYC (219 miles, 4'17")
10 AM: NYC (Katz's for lunch)
12 PM: Leave NYC for DC (227 miles, 4'24")
5 PM: DC, Nat'l Air and Space Museum
10 PM: Leave DC for Asheville NC (470 miles, 7'41", sleeping on bus)

Day 2
6 AM: Arrive Asheville, wander around city
3 PM: Leave Asheville for Great Smoky Mtns Nat'l Park (take Blue Ridge Pkwy, 85 miles, 2'31")
6 PM: Great Smoky Mtns Nat'l Park

Day 3
8 AM: Leave Great Smoky Mtns Nat'l Park for Atlanta (166 miles, 3'7")
11 AM: Atlanta
4 PM: Leave Atlanta for Eglins AFB (310 miles, 5'38")
10 PM: Arrive Eglins AFB

Day 4
Eglins AFB

Day 5
9 AM: Leave Eglin AFB for NOLA (257 miles, 4'16")
1 PM: NOLA

Day 6
NOLA

Day 7
7 AM: Leave NOLA for Austin, TX (509 miles, 8'27")
4 PM: Arrive Austin

Day 8
6 AM: Leave Austin for Gila Cliff Dwellings/Gila Nat'l Forest (771 miles, 13'13")
8 PM: Arrive Gila Cliff Dwellings/Gila Nat'l Forest

Day 9
7 AM: Leave Gila Cliff Dwellings/Gila Nat'l Forest for Petrified Nat'l Forest (276 miles, 5'42")
1 PM: Petrified Nat'l Forest

Day 10
8 AM: Leave Petrified Nat'l Forest for Grand Canyon (167 miles, 2'55")
11 AM: Grand Canyon
4 PM: Leave Grand Canyon for Las Vegas (274 miles, 4' 43")
9 PM: Las Vegas

Day 11
Las Vegas

Day 12
8 AM: Leave Las Vegas for Death Valley Nat'l Park (147 miles, 2'27")
11 AM: Death Valley Nat'l Park
1 PM: Leave Death Valley Nat'l Park for Sequoia Nat'l Park (Southern tip, 184 miles, 3'8")
4 PM: Sequoia Nat'l Park

Day 13
Sequoia Nat'l Park

Day 14
8 AM: Leave Sequoia for Pebble Beach, CA (US-101, stop to pay tribute to James Dean, 274 miles, 5'9")
1 PM: Pebble Beach (take 17 Mile Drive, visit golf course, boardwalk)
4 PM: Leave Pebble Beach for San Francisco (CA-1, 125 miles, 2'34")
7 PM: San Francisco

Day 15
San Francisco

Day 16
4 AM: Leave San Francisco for Portland, OR (CA-1 and US-101, 751 miles, 17'6")
10 PM: Portland, OR

Day 17
7 PM: Leave Portland, OR for Olympics Nat'l Park (Southwest tip, 161 miles, 2'48")
10 PM: Olympics Nat'l Park

Day 18
8 AM: Leave Olympic National Park for Seattle, WA (80 miles, 2'6")
10 AM: Seattle
9 PM: Leave Seattle for Mt Rainier Nat'l Park (128 miles, 2'34")
11 PM: Mt Rainier Nat'l Park

Day 19
10 AM: Leave Mt Rainier Nat'l Park for Glacier Nat'l Park (572 miles, 10'23")
8 PM: Glacier Nat'l Park

Day 20
Glacier Nat'l Park

Day 21
6 AM: Leave Glacier Nat'l Park for Grand Teton Nat'l Park (take Beartooth Road, 566 miles, 11'16")
6 PM: Grand Teton Nat'l Park

Day 22
Grand Teton Nat'l Park

Day 23
6 AM: Leave Grand Teton Nat'l Park for Crazy Horse Memorial/Mt Rushmore (475 miles, 9'4")
3 PM: Crazy Horse Memorial/Mt Rushmore
5 PM: Leave Crazy Horse Memorial/Mt Rushmore for Badlands Nat'l Park (96 miles, 1'54")
7 PM: Badlands Nat'l Park

Day 24
9 PM: Leave Badlands Nat'l Park for Chicago (845 miles, 14' 15", sleeping on bus)

Day 25
11 AM: Chicago

Day 26
10 AM: Leave Chicago for Allegheny Nat'l Forest (514 miles, 8'57")
7 PM: Allegheny Nat'l Forest

Day 27
10 AM: Leave Allegheny Nat'l Forest for Boston (530 miles, 9'2")
7 PM: Boston

Welcome to the RoadTrip America Forum!

I can't get past the budget, which appears to be low. The cost of a workable bus as you plan is likely to be higher, and I'd say the fuel economy estimate is probably on the high side. Do you have known sources of vegetable oil to provide for an 80/20 oil/diesel split?

Have you ever tried to drive a bus in New York City? How about through other major cities?

The budget is admittedly low, but being college students we are really trying to keep it down, and are perfectly content living on a budget.

We're not really planning on driving in to cities too much, and are thinking a minibus, not full size, a la http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/cto/2341043568.html, which I assume should make driving in cities easier, and the mileage more reasonable (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymod..._Vandura.shtml puts mileage at 15 city/20 hwy - with it loaded down, but most driving being highway, I'd hope that balances out around 15mpg). We'll try to park outside cities and take public transit or bike in.

The sources of veggie oil is a cause of concern, but we are going to install quite sizeable fuel drums so will be able to load up when we do find it, and I am hopeful that if we put in sufficient pre-work we can line up sufficient sources.

Skipping past the budget I'm afraid I can't get past day 1 ! Sorry but travelling over 900 miles in 24 hours while visiting NY and DC Air and space museum would be tough with a helicopter, but in an old bus running on Veggie oil ???

Days of 500 miles would be real tough in a bus, but you have many over that [and over 700 miles] on your list and a lot of days under that mileage you are making multiple stops. Travelling 556 miles in an old bus and travelling the Beartooth highway just won't happen. It's great that you and your buddies are looking to hit the road and have an adventure, but I think you will have to do some serious research and come up with something a lot different to your current plans.

Have you checked the cost to insure a conversion bus ? I have no idea but here in the UK with young drivers it would be well over two thousand for that alone.

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Originally Posted by Southwest Dave

Skipping past the budget I'm afraid I can't get past day 1 ! Sorry but travelling over 900 miles in 24 hours while visiting NY and DC Air and space museum would be tough with a helicopter, but in an old bus running on Veggie oil ???

Days of 500 miles would be real tough in a bus, but you have many over that [and over 700 miles] on your list and a lot of days under that mileage you are making multiple stops. Travelling 556 miles in an old bus and travelling the Beartooth highway just won't happen. It's great that you and your buddies are looking to hit the road and have an adventure, but I think you will have to do some serious research and come up with something a lot different to your current plans.

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At the end of the day, if it gets to be too much, we can always adjust our plan, but considering this is the last chance most of us will have to do something like this, and almost certainly the last chance we'd have to do it together, I'd rather plan big and hope it works than do something comfortable and wonder if we were too complacent.

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Originally Posted by Southwest Dave

Have you checked the cost to insure a conversion bus ? I have no idea but here in the UK with young drivers it would be well over two thousand for that alone.

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I'm not sure of the cost, but I'm assuming you mean $2k annually - even if that were the case in the US, that's still only $166 for thirty days, which is roughly what I budgeted. Unless you mean $2k monthly, which seems insane.

I too, found it hard to get past day 1. Have you actually ever driven Boston to NYC at that time of day? It is not unusual to take a lot longer than you plan, by the time you get to park your vehicle..... somewhere! And if you are then going to commute or bike..... There's a really good chance you may not make it to Katz before noon. As for much further on that day..... well, I would have to agree with Dave, it needs serious rethinking.

The Beartooth Hwy... are you aware that it takes three to four hours to travel just that bit... in a car. Not sure how much longer it would take in a minibus.

By the time you get to Day 27 you will be painfully aware that leaving Allegheny Forest at 10am will not get you to Boston by 7pm.... not even on the MassPike.

Lifey

Sorry, but I think your plan has far too many holes to be even close to workable.

First of all, I completely agree with Dave about your first day being impossible without a helicopter. The being a "Last Chance" (which is a common statement around here, but it is always a rather silly statement if you think about it) is no reason or excuse to try to plan for completely unrealistic 900 mile days on the road. It's going to make you all way too exhausted to have fun, not to mention that it simply isn't safe as someone behind the wheel is going to be exhausted while trying to do such a thing. Not to mention, that its going to take a whole lot longer to cover these distance that you are planning for, especially when you are in a bus!

There is completely an issue of "less is more" and trying to jam in everything practically guarantees that the fun will be gone very very early into the trip, and the reason it will really be a last trip is because you'll never want to travel with each other again (and that's if your friendships even survive.) It's a very common story, and one which the answer to such warnings is almost always "but we're different" or "it won't happen to us" which is never really the case. Starting a trip by planning to go non-stop for 36 straight hours is a plan to torpedo your trip before it even gets started. Of course, the same is true for your other days where you plan to "sleep on bus" while driving hundreds of miles through the middle of the night.

I will also say that your bus plans just scream "pipedream" to me. I have serious, serious doubts that you can actually go forward with them for anywhere close to the budget you've proposed. I really think you are seriously underestimating the cost to obtain, customize, and make a bus legal to drive for anywhere close to $2k. I just can't see how you'd possibly be getting anywhere close to a roadworthy vehicle for that price, much less do all the other things you are talking about. For that matter, will you even be able to drive the bus you purchase? Generally speaking, a bus is a different category of vehicle where you'll need a CDL or at least an extra endorsement on your license.

But on top of that, purchasing a car for a 30 day trip is never cost effective by itself, and trying to purchase a specialty vehicle and then customize it is a sure way to burn away extra cash. If you are college students trying to do this on the cheap, I assure you, this is not the way to go about doing it.

BTW, even if you were able to get the Veggie Oil for free like you hope, your proposed fuel costs are way too low. The price of diesel has been well over $4 for a couple months now, and I'd be surprised if it isn't at the $5 mark early this summer. Not to mention, it looks like you've only figured point to point distances, ignoring the hundreds of extra miles you'll certainly add on driving through towns, parks, to campgrounds, and through attractions.

I'm sure this is not at all what you want to hear, and you can certainly try to go forward with your plans, but I just see a ton of major problems with your plan that will ultimately make it impossible for you to have fun, if you even get on the road at all. I think everyone here wants you to be able to go out on the road and have fun, and I think that would be a whole lot easier if you focused less on a "big dream" of a "perfect trip" and focused more on how you can have a great time working with what you really have available.

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Originally Posted by Lifemagician

I too, found it hard to get past day 1. Have you actually ever driven Boston to NYC at that time of day? It is not unusual to take a lot longer than you plan, by the time you get to park your vehicle..... somewhere! And if you are then going to commute or bike..... There's a really good chance you may not make it to Katz before noon. As for much further on that day..... well, I would have to agree with Dave, it needs serious rethinking.

The Beartooth Hwy... are you aware that it takes three to four hours to travel just that bit... in a car. Not sure how much longer it would take in a minibus.

By the time you get to Day 27 you will be painfully aware that leaving Allegheny Forest at 10am will not get you to Boston by 7pm.... not even on the MassPike.

Lifey

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Yes, I know traffic will be a pain, particularly in the Northeast. Having grown up there, I have no particular desire to spend time stuck in traffic there - if there's a way to avoid the Northeast corridor completely, I'd gladly take that. I'd figured aiming to get to NYC around 10 would put us behind rush hour, but if that doesn't seem doable, most of us have lived in NYC at one point or another, so it wouldn't pain us to cut it out.

OK, so if a cross-country loop doesn't seem feasible, what sort of path does? The main issue is that we've all done pretty much everything east of the Mississippi very extensively, so we'd really like to get west and do stuff we haven't done, which obviously requires lots of distance. Does that mean that it makes more sense to simply head West straight from Boston, and cut out extraneous diversions in favour of more direct routes? If so, what route makes sense that is more doable in such a time frame?

As for the bus, with six of us it seems like the most comfortable arrangement for driving long distances, and affords us the opportunity to sleep while driving if we want. The only other real option would be to take a friend's Ford Expedition, which gets worse mileage than a bus would, isn't convertible to vegetable oil, and I doubt would be as comfortable (although I guess it would handle better, so that might make up for the reduction in space).

A loop of the US is generally possible with a month available, but it does mean you need to pick and chose where you go. There are so many days where you're simply planning to do vastly more than is possible in a day that we can't possibly go through all of them, but simply put you need to drastically cut down on your destinations. Trying to drive even 600 miles in a day, simply isn't going to leave time for sightseeing, but you've got repeated days where you are trying to drive 700, 800, or even 900 miles and spend time at multiple national parks, or driving on scenic drives that will take 2-3 times more time than you are planning. That's not even including the extra time you'll need to factor because you are driving a very old bus. Trying to cover even 500 miles in a day is going to leave you very little time for any sightseeing. What destinations and drives you still do is up to you, but if you've already spent a lot of time on the east coast, then heading west would make some sense as a starting point.

Again, for the bus, I think you are massively underestimating the cost, massively overestimating the comfort, and simply not anticipating the many potential problems and downsides with your plan.

If you are looking at a Vandura minibus conversion, you might as well take the Expedition and tent camping gear. It should get 15 mpg on the highway, and it will run on gasoline. The 6.2 liter GM diesel wasn't particularly reliable or inexpensive to maintain and I question how well it would run on veggie oil.

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Originally Posted by Midwest Michael

A loop of the US is generally possible with a month available, but it does mean you need to pick and chose where you go. There are so many days where you're simply planning to do vastly more than is possible in a day that we can't possibly go through all of them, but simply put you need to drastically cut down on your destinations. Trying to drive even 600 miles in a day, simply isn't going to leave time for sightseeing, but you've got repeated days where you are trying to drive 700, 800, or even 900 miles and spend time at multiple national parks, or driving on scenic drives that will take 2-3 times more time than you are planning. That's not even including the extra time you'll need to factor because you are driving a very old bus. Trying to cover even 500 miles in a day is going to leave you very little time for any sightseeing. What destinations and drives you still do is up to you, but if you've already spent a lot of time on the east coast, then heading west would make some sense as a starting point.

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Thanks, that makes sense. What is a reasonable daily distance, in your opinion?

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Originally Posted by Midwest Michael

Again, for the bus, I think you are massively underestimating the cost, massively overestimating the comfort, and simply not anticipating the many potential problems and downsides with your plan.

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What would you suggest as an alternative?

600 miles is really the max you should be looking at for a full day on the road, where you don't do any significant sightseeing and you are spending your day on the freeway. 500 miles will allow time for a few short stops to break up the driving. However, if you end up going with a bus, even those numbers are probably going to be too high.

On days where you want to do any major sightseeing or plan to spend a lot of time on 2 lane roads, you need to plan to cover less ground than that. And you really need to eliminate all of the days where you think you'll be able to drive through the night, while some people sleep. There are many reasons why that just won't work.

For transportation, I'd very much agree with GLC that if you have an Expedition available already that would be the first place I'd start. The other option with 6 people would be to take 2 cars, in fact, there could be some big advantages of taking 2 cars on a trip of this size as you would be able to mix-up who is traveling with who, and be able to get away from each other when people have different priorities or simply need a break from being in constant contact. I'd say there is a 97% likelihood that either of those options would result in a much cheaper and more enjoyable trip.

Have to agree with the above. Two vehicles could make a lot of sense, some of you are bound to get cranky with each other all being crammed in a can for long periods of time.

The other thing with the bus idea that you may not have thought through, is that in most States the seat belt laws will not allow people to travel without being buckled up, so no one can lay down and get some half decent rest while moving along. [If that's even possible in a moving vehicle]

The model I'm thinking of is entertainer buses - surely bands have been sleeping in buses as they travel between gigs for decades? I know that this probably won't be as comfortable or as smooth a ride, but I think that would at least address the legal aspect. As for a CDL, that only kicks in when you go over a certain GVWR, or number of passengers, neither of which we'd hit. I think I'd only planned to do night-time driving twice, once to get out of the NE corridor, and once across the midwest to Chicago - is even that too much? I actually got the idea of nighttime driving from a few older threads on this forum - with 6 of us, it seems we could do a reasonable job of spelling, and even having two people awake to keep each other company.

In general, we're under 600 miles a day - I think we go over four times, although I certainly understand the concern about slower speeds on two-lane highways, and that 600 miles still doesn't leave us much day time.

I'm looking at what makes sense to cut to generate a shorter route, and the first thing to go seems like it would have to be Glacier Nat'l Park - plotting it on google maps, nothing else seems to be overly out of the way - am I wrong about that? At about 9000 miles round-trip, the average is only 300 miles; would it make more sense to have fewer rest days and spread out the miles more?

Clearly, you've got your heart set on a bus. I think if you focus on that, you're never actually going to get your trip off the ground, and even if you do, you are looking at a much more expensive and difficult trip than it needs to be. I don't think there is much more we can say on the topic at this point, other than it is your trip, and you really need to think about it beyond the positive aspects as you make your decision.

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I think I'd only planned to do night-time driving twice, once to get out of the NE corridor, and once across the midwest to Chicago - is even that too much?

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Yes, even your two times of overnight driving is too much. You might be able to make it there safely by sticking to a solid rotation of 2 people being awake at all times, but then what? You're all certainly going to be exhausted from (not) sleeping in a moving, bouncing bus, and certainly whoever has been driving the last couple legs will not be able to have any fun at all when you arrive at your "destination." In fact, that sort of thing lingers and makes it real difficult to enjoy anything for days, and the different levels of sleep when between group members will simply add more tension to your life in a tin can.

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In general, we're under 600 miles a day - I think we go over four times, although I certainly understand the concern about slower speeds on two-lane highways, and that 600 miles still doesn't leave us much day time.

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600 miles is the max that is recommended and the days you go over that number, you don't just touch that number and go slightly above, you destroy any sense of reality. The two "overnighters" you are planning are 900 mile days where you are planning major stops along the way. San Francisco to Portland via the coast is a 3 day drive minimum, and you hope to slam that out in a day! The other day where you go over 600 miles, you are hoping to drive 800 miles, which is just not reasonable.

And even more to the point, again, is the 600 is a full day of all freeway driving with basically no extra stops. You've got multiple days where you hope to travel 550-600 miles and plan see lots of things on those days. The days you plan to visit Atlanta, Death Valley (your mileage estimates can't be to Sequoia National Park, you are likely looking at the National Forest where there are no Sequoia Trees), Pebble Beach, Glacier, Beartooth/Tetons, and Black Hills are all cases where you hope to drive nearly 600 miles, spend many miles on 2 lane roads, and still have a full day of sightseeing.

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The model I'm thinking of is entertainer buses - surely bands have been sleeping in buses as they travel between gigs for decades? I know that this probably won't be as comfortable or as smooth a ride, but I think that would at least address the legal aspect.

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It would still be worth checking the laws. Most States will not allow passengers to sleep in a bed in a moving RV and they have to be properly seated with a seat belt for each passenger. I doubt you can buy a van and put some beds in there and convince the Sheriff that it is a 'Tour bus' even if the rules are different.

Don't get disheartened, you and your mates can have a great trip and although we are not saying what you want to hear we are only saying so for your benefits. I would start by cutting back your options and limiting yourselves to a a max of around 500 miles for travel days and have a few where you just relax and have fun. With a month you can have a great trip from coast to coast to coast, but just try and focus on a narrower line instead of going as far North and as far South as you can as well as East to West.

You've got some great advice here, and following it to lay out your route will help you create a trip to remember. Just one thing I would like to add, for your consideration.

The mileage per day quoted above, and you will now be quite familiar as to how it is worked out and how to calculate, works well for two or three people. Remember, that the more people you have in a party, the longer it takes each time you stop, be it for food, fuel, bathroom, or even just to look around.

Factor in, that you are travelling with a large party, and despite your, and everyone else's best intentions, a lot more time will be lost each time you stop. Keep your mileage on the conservative side. Leave enough flexibility in your plans, so that you can make adjustments as you go along.

Thanks for all the advice, it makes sense and is very useful. I guess what I need to do now is go over the route and try to trim it down to a more manageable size.

As for the bus, I understand what everyone is saying, and I'd be happy with the expedition, but some of the other guys who are going are pretty keen on the bus conversion, and it won't be easy to dissuade them.

As for mileage and time, yes, I realise I will have to add some padding there, and will do so in my revised schedule.

Thanks

What are you guys doing with that monster after the trip (assuming it makes it)?

My girlfriend and I are hitting the road for 2 full months starting four weeks from today.

I have spent 1.5 - 2 years planning this trip. I have gone over so many different vehicle options you would not believe.

It was originally supposed to be a group about your size but everybody bailed (I'm not surprised). So, first off, I have to say that it is AWESOME that you guys are doing this. I wish my friends had that dedication.

I'd have to agree with everyone here saying that the purchase and conversion of the bus alone very may well put an end to your trip very quickly or before it even starts. That doesn't mean it will..... The odds are just against you.

I came close to building my electric car for our trip but because of many factors I decided against it.

Do you really want to drive hundreds/thousands of miles to find you guys cannot obtain fuel? That alone would ruin my trip. It's not like you can hike/hitch a ride to the nearest gas station. You can't pull in to a neighbor hood, flip someone a $20, and ask to plug-in to their wall outlet for a couple hours.

Field repairs? Granted you guys are doing the conversion so you're obviously mechanically inclined but what if you get to a point where you need a mechanic or don't have the necessary tools?



At this point it makes more sense to me to rent a vehicle. Are you guys 25+? If not, then you will get an underage fee. Hertz has a deal going that will wave the fee for ONE underage driver but not all. Just rent a Clubwagon or something similar. They fit 12 people. Sounds much more reasonable to me (and you can usually remove unwanted bench seats). Unlimited mileage, don't have to worry about breakdowns, scratches, buying, etc. For one underage driver, 10 weeks, unlimited miles in a sedan, I was looking at about $3500. It'd be prob. about half of that assuming the drivers are 25 (maybe less).

Don't get too carried away with the bus project, in my opinion. That is a much bigger project than you guys anticipate. I can promise you that.

(btw - they do have coolers that you can set to hot/cold and plug in to a cigarette lighter that do a decent job. Used one in Scouts.)

There are many ways you can have the comfort you are looking for with a standard vehicle. You just have to get a little creative and think outside the box (and this site is one of the best resources for it!!!).

If you rent a Clubwagon they usually have a hitch. Then you buy a hitch rack that you can strap cargo to. No added wind resistance and more storage space.

All of that being said, I wish you guys the best. If I see that maroon beast driving down the road, I'll be sure to flag you guys down and we can all grab a beer.

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Originally Posted by boylanj64

I guess what I need to do now is go over the route and try to trim it down to a more manageable size.

As for mileage and time, yes, I realise I will have to add some padding there, and will do so in my revised schedule.

Thanks

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Forgot to mention here -

This happened to us. Two months (last two weeks are with friends and are taking out time from Ohio - Michigan (SP and NP) - Wisconsin - Sweet Home Chicago) and we still ran out of time in our planning.

What we did was come up with a "Must See" list. Those are the things we are DEFINITELY stopping to see. Then we have our other list categorized by location on things we have read/heard about that we want to see. That we we can see what we really want to and still fill in the spare time gaps.

I suggest removing the things that can and should be done on a later date. Orlando, Vegas, etc. They are expensive and distracting. I am intentionally driving around Vegas so I don't even see it. Once I here those buzzers and bells and see those lights....my trip is over and all my money is gone. I'd much rather go to Vegas for a long weekend and spend a bunch of money. If you're doing a road trip, see the things you're not going to fly to see. Bad Lands is a great example. You can even take the Metra into Chicago from O'hare (Chicago is awesome though...only reason I might suggest skipping it now is because of the time crunch and it's fairly close to home and easy to fly to).

Don't forget the time you are going to spend in these locations and how reluctant you will be to leave. Anyone who can run through a museum in 2 hours (just an example), obviously didn't see 1/4 of it.

I always say: "If you are going to take the time to do something, do it right, or don't do it at all."

After all, you stated you guys will not be able to do this again. I've always had more fun drinking with my buddys around a campfire than in a bar.

Just my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Mike and Mandy

At this point it makes more sense to me to rent a vehicle. Are you guys 25+? If not, then you will get an underage fee. Hertz has a deal going that will wave the fee for ONE underage driver but not all.

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More to think about. Mike makes a lot of sense.

Have you guys thought to check out other options? This crowd appears not to have an underage fee, and could well be worth checking out for a longer trip like yours.

Gee, I do hope this is going to be a great trip.