September Roadtrip: SF to Las Vegas and Beyond

Hi guys,

Been checking out the forums while i plan my roadtrip and got lots of excellent information from it. So thanks an awful lot already and I'm hoping you can help me out with a question, or a choice depending on how you look at it.

From reading guide books they've described some of the roads as gravelly, bumpy, etc etc and I'm wondering if
A) these would count as "off-road" in hire car insurance speak
and
B) if so is it worth hiring a 4x4/SUV if your car hire forbids you from going on these less than perfect roads?

I'm basically trying to choose between an SUV and a sportscar of some description. Obviously if the roads are less than perfect I'd prefer to be in a 4x4 but if any roads that are gonna be like that would invalidate the insurance than maybe a cool little car is a better idea?

Thanks in advance for any help on this first of many questions. ;-)

David

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Originally Posted by davidwebb_uk

From reading guide books they've described some of the roads as gravelly, bumpy, etc etc and I'm wondering if
A) these would count as "off-road" in hire car insurance

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From the point of view of car rental companies, any road that is not on pavement is forbidden. So, if the guidebooks you are looking at refer to gravel, bumpy, etc. You can assume that travel on them would invalidate your rental agreement. That being said, some people still rent 4x4/SUVs for that purpose and as long as you don't get stuck/break-down or etc -- you will be fine.

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I'm basically trying to choose between an SUV and a sportscar of some description. Obviously if the roads are less than perfect I'd prefer to be in a 4x4 but if any roads that are gonna be like that would invalidate the insurance than maybe a cool little car is a better idea?

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Cool little car will trump 4x4 for all of the reasons described. The thing to remember -- that the sports car isn't supposed to be taken "off-pavement" either.

Mark

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Cool little car will trump 4x4 for all of the reasons described.

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We have a winner!

If you really need 4x4 to drive that road, you really shouldn't be driving on those roads with a rental of any kind. However, there are numerous roads that might be considered "off pavement" that you could easily drive in a sports car. Just go slow! (And you would want to go slow in a rental SUV, too.)

I say get the type of car you will most enjoy driving. 4x4 and SUVs aren't needed for most roads any traveler is going to encounter.

Cheers guys. If i went down the cool little car route I think I'd want something more sporty than what it seems we can hire from the UK.

The 4x4/SUV selection is better though. Dodge Journey and Durango both being available within our budget.

Personally I'm vearing towards suv just in case. But hell a sportscar would be very nice on the open roads.

Time to do more investigations and speak to a couple of hire car companies.

The closest thing you are going to get to a sports car from a mainstream US rental company is a convertible - if you are lucky, it might be a Mustang, but then again, it might be a Chrysler Sebring.

They've been Sebrings on the ones I've looked at so far...

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Originally Posted by glc

The closest thing you are going to get to a sports car from a mainstream US rental company is a convertible - if you are lucky, it might be a Mustang, but then again, it might be a Chrysler Sebring.

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Granted, it might be outside of the budget, but Hertz has the Fun Collection, with the Corvette available. 436 horsepower of fun!

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Originally Posted by davidwebb_uk

They've been Sebrings on the ones I've looked at so far...

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Keep in mind, with any rental companies, they aren't promising a specific model. If they say Sebring it will also say "or similar" and in some cases you could end up with a Mustang. There aren't many convertable options, so in that case there are only a couple models that you are likely to find.

The same is true with SUVs, even though they might say Dodge Journey or Durango, you're really just booking a class. In case of the Journey, its the Small SUV/"crossover" class, where you could end up with a Journey or a Subaru Forester, or a Chevy Equinox, or a Ford Escape. If you went with a Durango, you'd be getting one of any number of mid-sized like the Ford Explorer or a Toyota Highlander. They will simply give you what they have available on a given day.

The only exceptions are if you go with something like the Hertz Fun Collection mentioned previously, where you are reserving a specific model. However, companies do charge a pretty substantial premium for specific reservations like these.

FYI, the last time we rented a "crossover", Enterprise gave us a Ford Edge.

A car I love renting is a Dodge Charger. Very sporty with an intimidating quality.

May not be a Mustang or a Corvette. But it's got eye-appeal.

Sykotyk

:lol:

I do love a Corvette, and like the Dodge Charger too but I don't think £300-£400 a day fits our budget. I've got about £800 to spend on car hire (and all relevant insurance) for the 3 weeks...

Well plans have moved on.

We've got our flights booked. LHR to SFO on the 9th Sept '09 flying back from LAS on the 30th.

and I've just booked car hire...

We ended up going with a Mid-size SUV (Chevy Equinox or similar) from Alamo. £585 for the 3 weeks and seemingly everything included which is good me thinks.

I'll put up our initial itinerary soon.

The rental companies generally stretch their definitions a bit - to me, an Equinox is a small SUV, not a midsize. A midsize to me would be a Trailblazer and a full size would be a Tahoe or a Suburban.

Possibly, but it'll be more than enough for the two of us and our gear for three weeks.

David, I don't know what Alamo's policy is, but you may find you don't like the SUV, you could well be able to switch it out during the trip. I've used Hertz for four road trips, and have found them fine about swapping cars (four cars in three weeks last year). I've even done this a couple of times for the simple excuse, "I don't like it!" (anyone who's driven a Chevrolet HHR may realise why!). It's a lot easier to do this in-state, but I've had no problems or extra charges out of state, either. A couple of years ago, I got really lucky and switched a horrible Volvo for the only rental a Hertz Local had ready and so happily did the next 2500 miles in a convertible Mustang for the same price. :)

Space is also a consideration, and if you're travelling, you and your gear do expand to fit the given space. A Mustang, for instance, will only take one suitcase in the boot.

Cheers Wizzkitt, from what I've seen of the Equinox it looks like it'll be alright.

Last time I hired a car in the states they just sent us out to the lot and told us to pick. :-)

You shouldn't have too much problem with an Equinox. I did the same trip - San Francisco to Vegas, then Arizona, through Monument Valley, to Colorado, through the Rockies (which was why the HHR was so useless - it was like looking through the slit in a tank!), back through Utah and to SF - last year, and at about the same time of year. Have a brilliant time, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Oregon for me, this year, I think... ;)

How long did your trip take you?

So far we're flying into SF on the 9th, sleeping in Death Valley on the 16th, arriving in vegas on the 17th and staying in Vegas till monday. We then have to be back in Vegas on the 29th for our flight home. and I'd like to do Grand Canyon, Horshoe bend, and as much as the four corners as possible... including the Durango to silverton railway, I'm not sure if this is even going to be viable.....

You are probably being a little optimistic in trying to see all that in the time. I took almost three weeks to do a round trip and ended up chasing my tail and not seeing everything I wanted to. If anything give, forget about the 4 Corners. Other than the novelty of taking a photo of yourself with each hand and foot in a different state, there is absolutely nothing there other than souvenir stands. You might stretch the excitement out to five minutes before you think, "Okay, done this".

Do you intend to do the North or South rim of the Grand Canyon?

Hi David,

There is so much to see and do in the areas you are visiting which offers some of the best and most diverse scenery to be found anywhere.
Between S/F and Death valley Yosemite is a magnificent park that you shouldn't miss.
After Grand canyon and M/V and a "pit stop" at the Four corners you have Mesa Verde and a little further south Canyon De Chelley. As you head up the million dollar highway you will come across the Black canyon of the Gunnison and you could start heading back to Vegas via Moab, Arches N.P. and Bryce canyon and Zion creating a nice loop.

If you want to put up an itinerary we should be able to help you "fine tune" it

I will admit, Four Corners is there strictly for the novelty of it. If not for arbitrary lines on a map, it would hold no significance whatsoever.

Basically, if you're passing through the area, it's a neat tourist trap, but not worth going out of your way for, to me. (I went up US550 from Albuquerque, so it was on a few miles extra from Teec Nos Pos to hit it).

Sykotyk

Well after lots more reading and even booking some hotels our itenary is looking a lot more full. We have the last few days to close out, waiting to hear back from some people on reservations but so far here it is. If people have comments, suggested sites, routes I'm more than open to hearing them.

Thanks for all the help so far, not just on this thread but every other thread I've garnered info from.

9th Sept - Fly into SFO staying at Hotel Diva for 4 Nights.
9th - 13th San Francisco inc. Alcatraz at Night

13th Sept Drive to Yosemite and Stay at Curry Lodge for 1 night.

14th Sept Drive to Death Valley (via Tioga Pass) and Stay at Panamint Springs for 1 Night. Would like to go to the racetrack (i've seen an excellent night shot) but unsure how viable this would be.

15th Sept Drive to Las Vegas staying at hopefully New York New York for 4 nights.
15th - 19 Sept Explore Las Vegas (my 30th is the 17th so suggestions for something big would be cool)

19th Sept Drive to Grand Canyon North Rim and stay at Kaibab Lodge for 4 nights
19th -23rd Sept Explore the North Rim inc. Torroweap, Widforrs Trail, Marble View, Bright Angel Point and possible the Wire Pass to Buckskin Gulch...

Now this is were it gets a little less solid. We'd like to do a full day photo tour of the Antelope Canyons, see Horsehoe Bend, drive the Moki Dugway, explore Monument Valley and Arches National Park before heading back to Las Vegas (possible through Bryce and Zion) to fly home.

So this is how the above is penciled in.

23rd Sept Drive to Antelope Canyon. Stay nearby for 2 nights (Recommendations?)
24th Sept - Full Day Photo tour of the Antelope Canyon ( Will likely be with the Adventurous Antelope Canyon Photo Tour people (Carol Bigthumb))

25th Sept Drive to Monument Valley

27th Sept Drive to Arches

29th Sept Drive to Las Vegas to stay at the Stratosphere for 1 night

30th Sept Fly home to London

So it's a lot more solid than it has been and I'm happy with it at the moment, but it could change. I'm a keen photographer so hoping we've allowed enough time to take photos and not have to drive silly mileage to do it.

As before any thoughts ideas please post em and I'll take em on board.

thanks again.


This Google Maps link may show you the places i've marked on the map... I'm gonna try and add routes to it (inc. the ones suggested elsewhere in this forum)

I've done a "photographer's" tour at Antelope Canyon (Roger Ekis); spectacular and I highly recommend it. Make sure you have a tripod; you will be taking exposures in the 15-30 second or more range.

The best time (they say) to take photos is when the sun is high overhead and some light beams penetrate the canyon; this means you have maybe 60-90 minutes of prime shooting.... not sure what a full-day tour would get you, you may want to check around.

We were able to leave Monument Valley early early and make it to Page in plenty of time to make the photo tour; you may want to consider leaving Antelope Canyon after the tour and heading straight to MV. We stayed at Gouldings.

As for lodgings near Antelope Canyon; my guess is Page is the only game in town.

THEORETICALLY, you may be able to leave North Rim early, hit a photographer's tour in Page, and spend that night in Monument Valley. Our day was MV ->Page -> Zion Lodge. Total 250 miles for us (7-8 hours of driving time) and doable if you're doing a 2-3 hour photo tour at high noon (plus lunch).

As this is a tight schedule, if you choose this route, make sure you tour reservations and MV lodging reservations also.

I've never done North Rim, but I wonder if you could afford to trim back from 4 nights to 3 in order to squeeze more time for Zion and Bryce, two of my favorite (and photogenic) parks.

I would suggest you consider something like:

Leave LV (early), spend full day and two nights in/near Zion (I happen to love Zion Lodge, but there are motel options outside the park).

Leave Zion early, loop up to Bryce, take the Navajo/Queens Garden loop, drive to North Rim (alternate: spend a night at Bryce; either the lodge or Ruby's Inn)

North Rim 3 nights

Eliminate the two nights in Page as per my earlier suggestion.

The above itinerary puts you in to MV on the 6th or 7th night out of LV, yours puts you there on the 7th night.

Anybody else out there want to comment on this? Too aggressive?

I 100% agree that visiting Zion on route to North rim is a good idea. Although another alternative would be to spend one night there and head to North rim, leaving Zion mid afternoon.
23rd] Head for Antelope canyon [Page]
24th] Take your photography tour and then head to Bryce [Ruby's Inn?].
25th] Explore Bryce, leave and take scenic 12 and the 24 [Capitol reef] and stop on the way to Arches.
26th] Continue to Arches and explore.
27th] A bit more exploring and leave to Monument valley. [Moki dugway?]
28th] Explore MV some more and head for Williams or nearby.
29th Back to Vegas over the Hoover dam. [A bit of old route '66 through Seligman?].

Makes a really nice loop.

Hey guys, thanks for the suggestions. Caloldblue, I think we've come to the decision to see less of more places and more of less places (if that makes sense). But knowing that the run out from Page/Antelope Canyon to Bryce could be done in ~3hrs I'm tempted to run up into Bryce.

SWDave, after reading your photo diary I like what you saw and like the sound of your route for our last few days. Thanks for the info.

Now I need to look into places to stay in Arches and somewhere on route 66.


Do you think it's worth (or even viable) to come through Canyon de Chelly from MV to williams(ish)?

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Do you think it's worth (or even viable) to come through Canyon de Chelly from MV to williams(ish)?

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Canyon De Chelley is on my "to do" list, and I hope to cross it off this Fall. It's certainly viable, and I would say most definitely worth it, even if you only have time for the views from the rim, but it's one of those things that you should be able to decide on the road depending on how long you spend at MV and how you are feeling etc.

Cool. Well route wise it looks viable two ways, past Canyon de Chelly in 6hrs to Flagstaff or a more direct route in 3hrs to Flagstaff. So I guess we'll see how we feel. Emma's interested in the Petrified Forest so I'm thinking we'll be going via Canyon de Chelly.

We've just book the VIEW hotel in Monument Valley. So now Just Bryce, Arches and Vegas to go. With 2 nights possible left to random chance in between Bryce and Arches and MV and LV.

I've spent the afternoon drawing routes on our map of the southwest so am a bit excited. :lol:

A Wig Wam !

If you want to visit Petrified forest you could stop a bit earlier at Holbrook and stay at the Wigwam Motel (on the National Register of Historic Places). It's almost an hour and a half from Flagstaff, but you can still get to Vegas OK.
Moab is the nearest town for Arches and as I said earlier Ruby's Inn is well located for Bryce.
A tip for Bryce; Drive down to the far end of the Canyon and stop at all the view points on the way back. This will put all the pull outs on your side of the road and you won't have to keep pulling across the traffic.

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I've spent the afternoon drawing routes on our map of the southwest so am a bit excited. :lol:

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Yeah ! Bet you can't wait. I sure hope you pop in with a report on your return, we love photo's as well ;-)

The Wigwams look cool, I also found hints of a teepee hotel near Cainville but only phone numbers so I'll have to call during the week and find out more.

Ruby's Inn looks like a goer and I'll read more about Moab.

Thanks for the tip on Bryce.

You would be in somewhat of a high season in Moab, hotels will be very pricey, the Super 8 is $130 a night and the Motel 6 is $105.

That's cheap in comparison to some of our other prices. ;-)

I suppose everything is relative - at the end of February the Motel 6 was $50 and the Super 8 was $60. They are both in very nice condition for "budget" hotels.

True.

Jumping questions around. How easy is it to get from SFO into SF actual?

We've got a hire car from the start of our trip (cheaper due to booking 3 weeks rather than 2 weeks + X days) but it's $35 to park in SF and only $14 to park at the airport (per 24hr) so I'm thinking pickup the hire car park it and the long stay and then get into SF by public transport. Viable? Sensible?

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Originally Posted by davidwebb_uk

True.

Jumping questions around. How easy is it to get from SFO into SF actual?

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The Bart system is very good, reasonable and runs regular from the airport to SF. Are you staying at an airport hotel or downtown still ? Airport hotels normally have a free shuttle to and from the airport and then take the Bart train. If you are staying downtown you could alway's phone the rental company and tell them that you may be picking the car up 2 or 3 days late due to complications but you will pay the full premium as agreed so you know it's available on arrival.
A bit cheeky, but if you have paid the rental then why not try and get them to store it for you free of charge. Got to be worth a try !

... and I use it to get to the airport(s) too at times (SFO and OAK). Things to note:

1) It is not a 24-hour system; closes up around midnight and doesn't start up again until 6 am-ish - see www.bart.gov for details.

2) Hauling lots of luggage during commute hours (7-9am from SFO to downtown or 4-6pm from downtown to SFO) may be dicey due to crowded conditions. The run FROM SFO won't be too bad, as you'll be getting on an empty train... getting off in the city may require a lot of "pardon me's". Heading for SFO with luggage during the afternoon commute; I would suggest taking a cab.

Thanks for the replies guys. I was tempted to see if we could delay picking the car up for a couple of days. I'm tentively planning on doing the 47mile drive round SF so we'd need the car on the saturday to drive out on the sunday. Is the 47mile drive worth it?

We're staying near union square...

The 49 mile drive isn't what it used to be, 50 years go. I think there are better ways to spend your time in the city, and more fun than spending a couple-three hours negotiating traffic.

Public transit in SF is decent to good. The Muni runs subway cars under Market street, restored old trolleys from around the world ON Market street. Buses everywhere, although the Muni is legendary for lack of adhering to a schedule. They used to joke only bananas and Muni buses came in bunches. The underground/modern lines J K L M N O T run outward to various neighborhoods (my grandparents all lived along the N Judah). T (Third Street) is the newest, it runs past the baseball park.

The historic trolleys also run along the Embarcadero (waterfront) from Market to Fisherman's wharf.

If you don't mind walking, a nice day's walk from Union Square can take you through Chinatown (Grant Street) up to Columbus (North Beach, old Italian neighborhood, and all the way down to Fisherman's wharf... maybe two miles one way and only modest hills.

A word about the hills. If you're looking at a map and planning a walking excursion, take note that the city planners completely ignored geography when they laid out the rectangular street grid. North of Market are some hefty hills (Nob, Russian, Telegraph) that are not apparent on a map. That's why they invented cable cars; horses pulling carts used to fall down trying to go up these hills.

For those harder-to-reach spots, there's always the cab option. A car in the city is an expensive annoyance. Even I, now a suburbanite, attempt to use BART every time I go into SF rather than drive.

A walk sounds more appealing than the drive to me. I'm definitly considering leaving the car at the airport now then...


We Just booked New York New York for our 4 nights in Las Vegas.