Seattle -> Baltimore mid December

Hi,

I'm new to this forum and thought I should ask the experts here for their opinion.

I'm relocating to Baltimore from Seattle.

We have a quattro with winter tires, and had some snow experience in US in February with a rental car in the Lake Tahoo area heading down on a loop from Seatlle - Tahoo- Las Vegas - Grand Canyon - Joshoa Tree - LA - Monterey - San Francisco - Portland - Seattle.

I'm used to snow in cities but so far have not made a trip in winter across the rockies.

I was planning the following route:
Day1 leaving after lunch with friends Seattle - Baker (OR) 380 miles
Day2 Baker - Salt Lake City 460 miles (pass SLC and stay somewhere on the road)
Day3 SLC - Cheyenne 440 miles (pass Cheyenne and stay somewhere on the road)
Day4 Cheyenne - Raytown 693 miles (I'd expect this section to be more 500 -550 miles, depending where we stayed the night before)
Day5+6 Raytown - Baltimore 1080 miles

We're used to long driving I expect to drive between 8 and 10 hours a day, starting early in the morning at dawn maybe 1 hour into dusk.

I don't think we will have time for sightseeing, which is a pity but we have to be in Baltimore within 7 days.

Do you think this is realistic ?
How are the weather conditions on I-80 compared to I-70 ?
Other routes for suggestions ?
Where would you expect to hit snow in mid December ? Other than in the rockies.

Regarding sightseeing, we've seen almost the whole Westcoast
and most of the Nationalparks in Utah/Arizona, Mesa Verde being the most East we've made and Joshoa tree the most south.

Thanks for your suggestions/links and recommendations.

Drive safe !

Hello BB,

While I haven't charted it out, the miles per day seem quite reasonable. If I were to do this myself, I might lean towards somewhat longer days in the West and Great Plains and save the lower-distance days for the Midwest, Appalachians, and Easten Seaboard. That's primarily personal preference.

In mid-December, you may encounter snow at any place on the route. Due to high elevations, the stretch from Ogden, UT to Cheyenne, WY would seem most likely. You can avoid what would be the highest or second highest pass on the route by avoiding Salt Lake City (SLC). To do this, simply stay on I-84 east of Ogden until it joins I-80 around 30 miles east of there. If you were to make the short drop south down I-15 from Ogden to SLC to grab I-80, you'd have to climb up Parley's Summit, topping out at around 7,500'.

I am not familiar with the passes between UT and OR so can't comment on snow possibilities there. There's a reasonable chance of snow in the Appalachians once you get to this side of the country.

One comment on "passing SLC and staying somewhere on the road" is there are fairly limited options across WY (which you enter just east of Ogden). Evanston, Little America, Green River, Rock Springs, and Rawlins come to mind, but be aware of what the weather is doing ahead of you and avoid driving deep into weather and belatedly trying to find a room.

Have a safe trip and welcome to the East Coast.

Foy

Hi Foy,

thank you for the suggestion via I-84 and the reminder regarding few places where one can stay. I'm borrowing an Edge/wireless card from a friend for my laptop to be able to check out the weather ahead of us and also Motels/Hotels more or less in real time.

Do you know of a webpage which lists all passes on US Highways ? 7500ft corresponds to 2500m that should certainly have snow. I'd expect snow anywhere past 1500 m (4500ft), but I don't have a topographic map to figure this out.

One more question, anybody out there with experience with a Audi Quattro and snow chains ? Do I need 4 chains or are two sufficient ? I would only put them up on snow covered ice or in a snow storm.

Thanks !

I don't know of a listing for all of the passes, although many atlases and maps will show the major passes and elevations. If you find a list, please let us know.

I will say more importantly, when you are talking about a mid december trip, you'll have the potential to see snow virtually everywhere regardless of elevation. Certainly the plains and midwest get their share of snowfall in december.

For chains, consult your owners manual, however, as a general rule, chain go on the "drive wheels." If your car has All Wheel Drive, you will need to put chains on all 4 wheel. In fact, since because of how AWD systems work, putting them on just 2 wheels can cause some problems for the various systems that your car uses to know which wheels need power.

I don't think you can fit full snow chains on a Quattro due to wheel well clearance. What you need are "cable chains", and they need to be used on all 4 wheels on an AWD system. They can be bought or ordered from auto parts stores and tire stores, the cheapest I've seen them are at Walmarts in snow country. Mine cost $88 a pair ordered from O'Reilly, but the same size is $56 at Walmart.

BB,
I don't know how I missed that your vehicle is a AWD Quattro. Again, I'll leave it to others to say for sure, but I think the Western states' requirements are for chains or 4WD or AWD. In short, you may not need to acquire chains at all. If I were to learn the AWD would meet the requirements, I'd forego cable/chains altogether. Quite frankly, if it gets bad enough that an AWD Quattro needs chains, I'm looking for a motel to begin with.

Good move on the wireless card and laptop. Be sure to bring an inverter to plug into the cigarette lighter outlet so the screen will be nice and bright and you won't have to be so concerned with laptop battery life.

I also do not know of lists of passes and their elevations, but as noted, good highway atlases will often show key elevations. I agree that most anywhere out West above around 4,500' has a heightened liklihood of snow, but it can and does surely snow at lower elevations. Ask the good citizens of Salt Lake City (elevation about 4,000'). If I were anxious to know the elevations, I'd consult a quality highway atlas, look for the green shaded areas intersecting my route (where the green areas are usually National Forests, and the great majority of NF acreage is within mountain ranges), locate a named pass on my route, and google it if the pass' elevation is not marked directly on the atlas. One might also simply google "topography + Wyoming", for example, and bring up a listing.

Excepting WA, OR, and ID, where I am not familiar with the topography, your principal higher elevation segment is between Ogden, UT and Cheyenne, WY. It was recently pointed out in a thread about I-80 that it holds elevations at or above 6,000' all the way from the UT line to just east of Laramie. It can be a bit misleading, as the higher and more rugged mountains are in the distance as you travel across butte and mesa country, but it's high out there.

Keep digging at it and I'll bet you find pass elevations somewhere.

Foy

You may find conditions where chains or cables are required even on 4wd/AWD vehicles. If it's that bad, go hole up somewhere and let it clear unless you absolutely have to keep moving. Considering that top speed with chains should be no more than 20 to 25 mph, you might as well wait it out. You say that you have winter tires - that makes a very sure-footed vehicle even better.

How do you plan on getting from Seattle to Baker?

If it's I-90 east to I-82 to I-84, be careful for ice and snow on Snoqualmie Pass just east of Seattle. It's not that high up, but gets dumped on with regularity. I-82 is a so-so road. Only tough spot might be when you drop into the canyon to cross the Columbia river.

If You take I-5 to I-84, just remember the Columbia River Gorge's big issue is high winds. It's like a funnel.

On I-84 just east of Pendleton you have Cabbage Hill that leads you up to Dead Man's Pass. Going East is better than going west, as you'll be climbing mostly. But it is extremely curvy, there's not much in the way of guard rails, and you're on the side of the mountain the whole way.

Don't rush, take it easy.

After that, there's some hills and curves, but nothing bad. It isn't until you get near Idaho does it pick up. The last 40 miles or so has some big wind-swept hills.

Idaho is relatively flat the entire way to Utah. I say this with one caveat. The wind gets real bad at times as it's all relatively flat land. The east-central part of the state (Twin Falls to UT) has some really bad snow/sand storms caused by the wind. The stretch from the I-84/I-86 interchange to the state line can be closed due to weather at any time. And even if it's not closed, bad weather can crop out out of nowhere. It's the wind, not the snow, rain, or ice that makes this trouble.

Utah has a couple hills before you reach I-15. The biggest being the one right before I-15. It's a long slow grade that is exposed to fierce cross winds. So, keep it easy there.

And definitely, definitely, definitely, go on I-84 to Echo, UT to meet up with I-80. Do not go down I-15. There's no sense going out of your way to climb up and over Parleys Summit.

After that, Wyoming has a lot of ups and downs I posted on another thread (Pleasanton, CA to Milford, CT). The Sisters (after mm6), Elk Mountain (Rawlins to Laramie), and Sherman Hill/Happy Jack Summit (east of Laramie) are the problem spots.

Sykotyk

Thank you all for your replies and suggestions.

@Sykotyk,
I was planning to take I90 to Baker. We've taken the SLC route on our way to Bryce and the other canyons. And we've had some windy bits in ID but the roads there (in summer) where much nicer - built for speed :-) Of course in winter you should adapt to the road conditions.
@glc,
Thank you for pointing out the 2 versus 4 snow chains/cables - I assumed that, but wasn't certain. It didn't occur to me to look into the manual of the car :-) I'll check if anything is mentioned there at all. And I agree the Audi Quattro with winter tires should be very solid on snow (I remember an advertisement of an A4 quattro driving uphill on fresh snow, but I thought that was not real just an exaggeration) - the snow cables are just another backup and if weather get's too bad I'd rather take a break. There's no need to risk something - I can always call someone in Baltimore that I'm delayed and someone then will take care of the moving company unloading our household.

@foy,
inverter, iPod, GPS only the onboard Espresso maker is missing :-)

Thanks again for your help. I'll check REI if they have some topomaps where I can check the route.

We originally wanted to go south on I5 down to LA and then via Phenix St. Louis to Baltimore - but that's adding an extra 1000 miles and I don't think 4000 miles are doable in 6 days or 7 at most. But that route might avoid snow storms.

What do you think about this alternative route ?

BB,
Well, now that you mention it, there are some nice onboard coffeemakers which would work right in the cig lighter..........

I agree with glc in that there are certainly circumstances where a 4WD or AWD would need chains to make headway. What I'm trying to emphasize is the legal ability to continue through a pass when the weather conditions dictate a law enforcement enforced "chains or 4WD only" passage. Unless I'm mistaken, 4WD or AWD are, in most places, acceptable alternatives to chains/cables when the local Highway Patrol prohibits ascending a pass to vehicles without one or the other. Again, this is my impression--I've never been turned back or seen what appears to be on-site enforcement (but I'm regular but infrequent Mountain West Road Tripper). Finally, as noted and agreed, if the going gets so bad an AWD needs chains, time to pull off and get a motel (or fire up the DVD player and put on a pot of coffee).

Actually, I am of the opinion that an goodly amount of poor planning, inattention, bad luck, or some of all 3 are required to find yourself in a situation where a decent 4WD or AWD isn't all one needs to traverse an Interstate highway in the Mountain West. And there are few, if any, excuses for a laptop-equipped traveller to fail to observe the various state's DOT webcams in the passes and their overall online, real-time traveller information systems, not to mention the ability to punch in a place name or zipcode and see what weather.com is showing in terms of real-time weather radar there.

As to Phoenix, St Louis, etc, sure, why not? A cross country trip is a great opportunity to do some touring. If the primary mission is to get from point A to point B, however, adding 1,000 miles is outside of the mission. Besides, there are plenty of chances to find ice or snow in NM, TX, OK, MO, etc., so the swing south does not always assure you of non-frozen precipitation travel.

Foy

Hi Foy,

I've seen people forced to rent chains on the pass to Lake Tahoe in February of this year - at that time we had a 4WD rental and no problems to pass.

The idea with the DOT webcams is excellent - I'll start collecting a new Bookmark folder full of those for our trip.

I guess it's better to drive on snow than on some frozen sludge in the south which then becomes ice over night. And the aim is really this time only to get from A to B. In summer or for a holiday trip this would have been something different.

Thanks again for your comments !

BB,
Yes, so you've seen the Highway Patrol enforcing the chains OR 4WD, have you? I imagine it varies state by state, but it seems likely your AWD Quattro will be allowed to pass when restrictions are posted at the passes or elsewhere.

The various DOT webcams are effective tools, no doubt.

We take a lot of grief here in the South about our collective reaction to winter weather. There is some truth to our over-reacting, but the fact of the matter is it happens so seldom there is no logic to having large-scale snow removal equipment. It is also true that we have ice more often than snow. I have no hesitation about driving 50mph on dry, packed snow so long as traffic is light and visibility good, but ice is another story, isn't it?

Travel safe,

Foy

Here is the California chain law.

There are 3 requirements - R1 will let you through with AWD only. R2 will let an AWD through with snow tires. R3 requires that all vehicles chain up. It also says that all vehicles must "carry" chains in chain control areas. Cables qualify as chains. Reading it carefully, it may be a bit ambiguous - you may or may not have to carry them in R1.

You may want to do similar research on the other states' DOT sites.

Thank you glc,

I will most likely get a pair of chains/cables. I've read in various other Audi forums US and German that depending on up or downhill you want to change from front to back axis chaining.
The reason for downhill with back mounted chains is that the rear does not break out that easily and you can still correct with the front tires, whereas if you have the chains in front going downhill your rear pushes and breaks out more easily. Two tons (A6 wagon) will then go downhill until they get to rest.
The ESP seems to be fine with only one pair of chains mounted. I have not seen anyone posting chains on all four tires, which I guess would be probably better but in most cases a complete overkill.

Thanks again for your reply and help.
I'm getting excited for the trip - even if it's only a A to B trip without much sightseeing stops. We'll still try to do some sort of sightseeing if we manage to get through the Rockies quick enough.

You may want to think about having 2 pairs of cables. That would be the safest way.

Unless you know for sure, again consult the owners manual, I would not risk potential damage to your car. I do not know exactly how Audi's AWD system works, but I know on some AWD systems just putting them on 2 wheels can cause damage to your drivetrain.

The theory is someone flawed anyway. If you don't have chains on your front tires going down hill, you're going to have much less control of steering and breaking - which are primarily done by the front wheels. Personally, I think those things are failry important for traveling down a mountain.

Besides, putting chains on just 2 wheels will likely defeat the purpose of AWD, and I think it will be a whole lot easier to put 4 chains on at once than stopping and switching when you are at the top of a summit.

Checked the manual and in my case it recommends chaining up the front tires only.

Looks as if I will hit 1000 miles of snow this coming week independent of I90,I80 or I70.
Will be fun to drive, I hope I only need to add one extra day for the trip (two are possible).

Take it easy. Don't try to 'make up' time in bad weather. And you'll be fine.

As for going down I-5 to LA.... I wouldn't do it. There's some good hills there, too. And I-40 through southeastern CA, AZ, and NM have many hills and snow spots. Flagstaff is at 6900 feet (almost as high as Laramie, WY).

Sykotyk

We'll we're on the road - beautiful snow everywhere, also on the road unfortunately. Some icy spots, some fresh snow, I-82 Umatilla bridge was closed in the morning had to go via Pasco on the Oregon side to Umatilla, when we finally arrived in Umatilla the bridge was open again.
We're now in Ontario,OR and will try to get past Ogden tomorrow depending on the weather we might get to Evanston. Anyone out there who was on the road in that area ?
How about Cheyenne to Denver ? Or Denver to Kansas City ?
Reports on I80 are also welcome.
Even suggestions to go past Denver down to I-40 and then taking a sharp left turn to Baltimore are welcome.
Average speed today was around 40 mph - there were others driving much faster e.g. trucks and we saw a couple of turned over pickups in the Yakima Posser area, probably due to strong winds and too much speed.

Hopefully, you will be checking this thread in the morning.

Don't know how to put it any nicer, but you're screwed. Tuesday, you are looking at snow falling out of the sky all the way from where you are to somewhere in Indiana, no matter which way you go. South of about Kansas City, it's an icy mix. I've got a layer of ice on the ground here right now, with snow coming down on top of it, and it's about 15 degrees.

Go to weather.com, click on maps, then weather details, then weekly planner. Not looking good, my friend. I'd grit it out and take 84 to 80 and see how far you get. Wednesday is supposed to be a lot better.

Thanks glc,

how about I40 ? Would that be an option then or is it snowing /thawing there too ? Any takers for live view in that area of the country ?

We'll head to Ogden /Evaston today we'll hit the road in the next few minutes.
I'll check this thread tonight again, keep posting.

Thank you all.

How are the driving conditions in Kansas ? Not recommended to be on the road ? I don't mind driving through snow - at least I prefer it over black ice.

Things are changing. The storm has moved east very quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if you make it a lot farther than Evanston today. The outlook right now favors 80 through Nebraska slightly, which is the most direct route anyway. I'd plan on taking the NE-2/I-29 route down to KC and picking up 70 there, that's looking like a better bet than dealing with Chicago. Going all the way down to I-40 is so far out of the way that it wouldn't make any sense at all.

Let us know where you are tonight and we can update the outlook accordingly!

Ontario, Or to Evanston is a rather short drive (by my standards). Try to get to Rawlins (around mm200) in Wyoming.

And when you start in the morning, try and get out of Wyoming asap, the area just east of Rawlins is prone to high winds/snow and probably the most dangerous stretch of I-80 in Wyoming (mostly for the westbound traffic, moreso than the eastbound due to WB being downhill).

Hope all goes well.

Sykotyk

That shouldn't be a problem now - the surface map and the radar show that the western edge of precip is already around the NE/IA line. It's clearing out fast.

Hi,

thanks for the updates.
Right now I'm in Ogden filling up the tank.
The road conditions where much better than anticipated, only few spots which were pretty bad, in that particular area we had 4 accidents one with helicopter coming in.
By my standards driving 600 miles a day is normal but not under these weather conditions.

We'll probably pass Evanston and hit the next Best Western after that. I'll try to find out how the weather looks like in the pass. But should be Ok - can't be as worse as it was in the Umatilla region.

Here are a few pictures more to come.

Hi BrummBrumm, Looking at some of those pics perhaps you should shorten your name to Brrr Brrr ! [As in It's cold]

Thanks for the updates. The roads in Ontario OR looked quite a challenge !

Love the picture of the Space needle. Looking forward to more.

Have a safe journey Dave.

We're planning the trip for tomorrow, currently we're in cosy Rock Springs "Outlaw Inn" it's cold outside, last reading on my car was 10 F. Let's see fow far we get on I-80 tomorrow, we're planning to leave latest at 7 am.

Any comments about Nebraska ? Lincoln seems to be colder than my freezer at home :-)

If this helps in your planning, right now KSDOT is reporting varying degrees of ice and snow pack on I-70 starting around Quinter and going all the way to KC. COTRIP is not showing any issues on I-25 north of Denver and I-70 east of Denver. 511Nebraska is showing ice and snow on I-80 from Kearney all the way east. I would plan a stop in Cheyenne to check conditions - if you can stay on I-80 to Lincoln (then NE-2 and I-29 to KC), you will save about 50 miles and avoid Denver traffic.

Hi glc,
yes we were planning to stay on I-80 to Lincoln or maybe even Omaha depending how fast one can drive and how the roads are. Then take I-29 south and hit I70 east again.
Thanks for checking the road conditions. We'll leave in the next 20 minutes.

I80 Evanston to York more or less dry, all open no problems.

You are not out of the woods yet, but at least there aren't any more mountains to deal with. There's going to be some possible icing ahead of you. It should be warm enough so that the road crews on the Interstates can keep things melted.

Traffic recommendation - take 435 around the NE side of KC, 270 around the N side of STL, 465 around the S side of Indy, and 270 around the S side of Columbus.

It looks like its already your current plan, but I would agree that you'll want to head down to I-70 tomorrow. I-80 looks like it will be a skating rink through Illinois by Thursday Evening. The snow/ice line looks like it will be the WI/IL border. North of the line, about a foot of snow, south of it, a good bit of sleet and freezing rain. Hopefully if you're down at I-70, you'll be south of most of the freezing precip.

You won't be able to go far enough south to avoid the freezing rain with this one, but it shouldn't be heavy along I-70. You sure picked an active week to move!

Hi,
the precipitation map http://radar.weather.gov/Conus/full.php
looks clear to me on I70 - we'll drive careful. Unfortunately there was no other choice to move my starting date is January 1st (or 2nd since the 1st is a holiday). Anyhow I'm planning three days to get to Baltimore from York, that shouldn't be pushing it at all even with bad weather ahead of us. Thank you all for your help and suggestions and 435 is definitely what we will take today.

If you see this before you hit St. Louis, you may want to consider this. The freezing line may drop below I-70, so you might want to take I-64 toward Louisville. If you do that, do not try to take I-64 through STL, it's closed for reconstruction. Take 270 around the north side, then 255 south to 64. That may be your best chance to only encounter rain.

Between Kansas City and Effingham (60 miles east of St. Louis) continous drizzling rain getting stronger. When the temperature dropped below 25F I decided to pull out to the next Motel. Just from unloading and parking the car in an actual spot the rain froze on my windshield (maybe 20 minutes) - I could chip off a solid 5 mm thick ice plate from my windshield. There must be a ton of salt on the road to prevent this - hopefully. No accidents on the road today and yesterday. We got into some rush hour traffic in STL on 270 going east but only for a short stretch, maybe 5 miles.
The remaining 750 miles we'll split up into two trips, any suggestions for the second day in terms of sightseeing ?

Thank you all for your help and suggestions they were very helpful to get us from coast to coast. Seattle seems to be covered in 5 inches of snow today - chaos rules there as they're completely unprepared for winter conditions.